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Jun 04, 2011

Comments

1.

>the character of one of these experiences is unique to video games

I don't see why you draw a distinction between videogames and games in general, particularly as you're focusing on the playing of videogames as art (rather than the design of videogames, not that the two are mutually exclusive).

Richard

2.

Richard,
Well the particular mix I'm talking about it unique to video games. That's not to say there is not also a related experience that can come from different types of games e.g. one related to board game. The gameness though is only one of the elements that I pick out, I'm interested in that in combination with the other responses we have, in particular, to digital games - as opposed say to film, or digital art. There can be an intensity of experience that maybe I should also make note of.
ren

3.

But some videogames are as different from one another in terms of the experience they deliver as they are from boardgames. Or would you say that playing a 1990s videogame version of Chess (such as Battlechess) is somehow closer to playing, say, Assassin's Creed II than it is to playing Chess?

Richard

4.

The "Is it Art" question is of course mostly an argument about semantics. The article gets past that with some arguments that I don't think any artist would dispute in terms of qualties of human creative effort. (but again the distinction between creativity and "art" is still semantic.

I'm generally one with a broader definition of the word "art" but unfortunately it is a blunter word as is "love" which speaks to some of the very highest realms of human existance yet take so many different forms.

While the use of the word "art" in realation to games is comfotable to me, in my mind it is more about "artistry" or creative and able skill in one's craft, as in a skilled woodworker.

Certainly the work passes the creative expression idea of "art" as in children expressing themselves at school with paint and other adult hobbies of that nature.

If though, we think of "The Arts" , (where I don not think that recognition by museums and academia is the key, but what discerning people can define themselves), I'm not sure that the vast majority of games reach that hurdle.

An easy comparison might be to film, where an action flick like "Rambo" would have a tenuous reference to "the arts", a film like Rocky, which touches on the delicate relations of man to woman and man to his place in the world, has a much better claiim. "The Arts" requires a high level of focus of expression in a way that helps us understand or view with perspective part of the most vexing and unexpressable parts of our human experience.

Of course, that sort of thing isn't black or white, it scales and I suppose its more a matter of how much something actually hits a special harmonic expression with reality that is what is ultimately the point in whehter or not the work would be reffered to as a "memorable piece of art", not the effort or intention involved. Any Hitchcock film, even though it might have a simple plot not different from a cheap horror film, somehow gives us more....Capra's "its a wonderful life" somehow hit a human vein of emotion that something very similar might have just come across as cheap entertainment.

So, result, not intent, for that higher point of acclaim, but semantics in when and how the word might be used.

5.

Adding a bit more, there's no doubt in my mind that the medium has all the facets in place where something of significant artistic merit (with a capital A?) could spring from.

For a game as a whole to achieve that, it would take a developer with creative control like a Kubrik or Allen, Capra or Coppala to meld and discard, to demand and adjust with an aim to do more than just entertain but to jiggle mind and imagination in away that both opens thoughts and is comlete as a whole.

When the goal is more entertainment than expression, it's far far less likely to sorta hit that level.

I will say though, that there were times in my experience with WoW in the burning crusade that I had to step back and admire certain things for their color-pallets and shapes...Nagrand was more than creative for me but in someways very complete -- a little of a Dega copy perhaps. The costumes of some of the blood-elfs (if I can remember back 5 years, had some potential as runway haute fashion) ... it was more than evoking a race, there was an elegance to some of the cuts.

I played a number of muds, and D&D before than, and while there was plenty of "gourgling brooks" and "Stone Escarpment looms before you" in many, playing Avalon, I was struck with a completeness and grace in the descriptions, and a voice in the prose that was consitent room by room, description by description. The difference between inspired righting and something trite or cliche is thin indeed.

As far as recognition from the " art critics that be" there really is a bias to recognize things as art that are soley made for the purpose of inspiration, not decoration and not for use. A Stickly chair might grudgingly be acknowledged but a Hockney painting interpreting a Stickly chair is readily seen as Art. The goldn gate bridge, because of its utilty, is harder for people to refferr to as an art masterpiece than if it were a piece of metal sculpted for only art's sake.

There is that bias in the word for most people.... and perhaps its a backhanded insult at the notion of "art"... it needs to be "useless" ? lol ?

6.

There's no question in my mind that game design is art. I'd also argue that there is art involved in the creation of components of the overall artwork (in the visuals, in the level design, even in the programming).

What Ren seems to be arguing, though, is that there is art in the playing of videogames, and that this art is not the same as that in any other field including boardgames.

Richard

7.

I probably would say the Battlechess is closer to traditional chess. But I think that’s a slightly different discussion that the one I was having.

In the popular and middle-brow world there has been a discussion of games and art and, in some quarters, a round reject of video games being capable of being art. Academically I’ve not found a defence of the view of games as art that I’ve been happy with – those that I have found have either focused on excellence in some traditional areas, or looked at interactivity out of context – what accounts seemed to lack is any notion of games being situated within a context and that one can accumulate literacy that is part of the experience. Thus I wanted to establish that computer games could be art in virtue of the experience they can create and it struck me that this had a particular character.

Now, like with any art form there is then a discussion about any given putative token of that form. For example we can ask is something a painting or a sculpture, we can ask if it is art or just craft, whether it’s good art etc etc. All these are valid but not what I was addressing here.

8.

Richard,
I tend to it in the philosophical camp that tends not to see properties as essentially inhering in artefacts but in our experience of them – which of course is related but the properties we talk about are the ones we have direct experiential access too. So when applying the Functionalist theory of art to games it’s the property of our experience of the work that counts. Now we can just look at or hear a computer game, if so the experience falls into one of the other categories out outlined. But when we experience a game through play then I’m suggesting that the experience of a computer game has aspects that are both aesthetic and different from say the standard way we experience a book or a picture or a board game (of course we can play with a book).

It might be that I should actually work on a general theory of the aesthetics of play as there are elements that I've identified that may be a play aesthetic that would give rise to slightly different experiences if we are playing with a video game or a board game or a stick. Then again it might be that the play experience is not an aesthetic one when looked at generally, but only in conjunction with a given type of artifact.

Ren

9.

Ren>I tend to it in the philosophical camp that tends not to see properties as essentially inhering in artefacts but in our experience of them

Well, non-physical properties, yes. Then again, even physical properties are often artefacts of our experience of them. If I say "this ring is made of gold", what I'm really saying is that this set of particular atoms, which I am arbitrarily grouping together and calling a ring, is made up primarily of atoms of gold. To the universe, however, those are just part of an unimaginably vast cloud of atoms interacting with one another in various fixed ways.

So yes, basically I agree with you on that.

Your argument seems to be that because playing computer games is a different experience to anything else, that makes them a different kind of art to everything else. I have two problems with this.

Firstly, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, you seem to be saying that the art is in the playing. I see there can be art in play, yes, but this art is enabled by the design of the game. It's like saying that the art in a novel is in the reading of it, not in the authoring of it. I guess you could argue that in the case of computer games the art emerges from a dialogue between the designer and the player, but I don't buy that. The art of play is different from the art of design because the symbols they use are different. I like the idea of using the fact that computer games are experienced differently to other creative works as support for the idea that game design is an art form. I don't see how you can make the play itself part of that, though, except in a designed-for sense. It may be an art, but it's a separate art.

Secondly, computer games are not homogenous. The experience of playing different genres of game can be vary greatly. I would particularly draw a distinction between single, multiplayer and massively-multiplayer as step changes of experiences. I don't think you've yet got to the heart of what they have in common, which makes it difficult to accept the proposition that they share a "computer game" aesthetic that isn't shared by other computer-based products (Powerpoint slides) or other game types (board games) or indeed other game types played on computer (play-by-email). Come to that, the visual aesthetics of games from the early 1980s are so different to those of today, it could be argued that the further into the past you go, the less likely it becomes that a "computer game" of the era is the same basic art form as what you're describing; as a corollary, today's games are going to be a different art form to those 30 years in the future. There's no common thread of experience (well, there is - they're all games - but that's not the thread you're aiming at).

I'm not trying to break your theory here, I'm just trying to understand it.

Richard

10.

i think you might want to examine the history of "artifacts as art" that are based on the "changes that occur to it and viewer while being interacted upon by a viewer" and what that thinking means in the examination of "art". i think youll find that there is no "aesthetic" per say to find in the traditional meaning, but only a "gestalt"-overall feeling- to the entire process.

experiential art. hamlet may always have the same fate, but how YOU FEEL about it, WILL and can change with time, and experience.

11.

Ren>> I tend to it in the philosophical camp that tends not to see properties as essentially inhering in artefacts but in our experience of them

Richard > Well, non-physical properties, yes. Then again, even physical properties are often artefacts of our experience of them. If I say "this ring is made of gold", what I'm really saying is that this set of particular atoms, which I am arbitrarily grouping together and calling a ring, is made up primarily of atoms of gold. To the universe, however, those are just part of an unimaginably vast cloud of atoms interacting with one another in various fixed ways.

The philosophy of science is a bit of a side-track but, many would tend to say that that’s all metaphor.

The kinda thing was pointing out was the difference between saying (1) ‘it is cold’ and (2) ‘I have the experience of it being cold’ – in aesthetic theory as I understand it people tend to be talking about the latter. Given the main subject of what I’m on about the distinction might not matter as this specific point is common to the nature of aesthetic experience and does not very across the things that one is having the experience of. That is in a painting or watching a play, it’s not the thing but the experience of the thing that theorists tend to talk about. I was just clarifying for those that have not read aesthetics.


Richard >Your argument seems to be that because playing computer games is a different experience to anything else, that makes them a different kind of art to everything else. I have two problems with this.

I’m saying the nature of the experience contains things that are common e.g. looking at pictures, and then a combination that is different from anything else I can think of.

Richard > Firstly, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, you seem to be saying that the art is in the playing.

I’m not sure we are using terms in the same way. I’m talking much more about aesthetics than art. I’m focusing on aesthetic experience which a category of experience we sometimes have when apprehend some works. Art is a category that is applied to some works – I gave the two main theories of how this categorisation operates. I’m using work as general term for artefacts, performances etc and apprehend for the mode by which we exerpeince them – read, watch etc.

Richard > I see there can be art in play, yes, but this art is enabled by the design of the game. It's like saying that the art in a novel is in the reading of it, not in the authoring of it.

I’m saying that the aesthetic experience comes from reading, yes. There is a different experience that comes from writing – I’ve not made a comment on the nature of the latter.

Richard > I guess you could argue that in the case of computer games the art emerges from a dialogue between the designer and the player, but I don't buy that.

That is what I’m saying.

Richard > The art of play is different from the art of design because the symbols they use are different. I like the idea of using the fact that computer games are experienced differently to other creative works as support for the idea that game design is an art form. I don't see how you can make the play itself part of that, though, except in a designed-for sense. It may be an art, but it's a separate art.

I’m not sure how you are using ‘art’ here. I’ve not made any comment on the act of design. But I have said that the design in-and-of-itself can have aesthetic qualities – these are distinct, in some ways, from the ones that come about through play. There are arguments about things like mathematical proofs, I’m sure there are ones about writing – I’ve noted that at least some of these exist but I’m not focusing on them here as there is a large existent literature in some areas e.g. code as art.


Richard > Secondly, computer games are not homogenous. The experience of playing different genres of game can be vary greatly. I would particularly draw a distinction between single, multiplayer and massively-multiplayer as step changes of experiences. I don't think you've yet got to the heart of what they have in common, which makes it difficult to accept the proposition that they share a "computer game" aesthetic that isn't shared by other computer-based products (Powerpoint slides) or other game types (board games) or indeed other game types played on computer (play-by-email). Come to that, the visual aesthetics of games from the early 1980s are so different to those of today, it could be argued that the further into the past you go, the less likely it becomes that a "computer game" of the era is the same basic art form as what you're describing; as a corollary, today's games are going to be a different art form to those 30 years in the future. There's no common thread of experience (well, there is - they're all games - but that's not the thread you're aiming at).

As per my comment on one of your previous remarks – I need to think about the primary class here. Is it that there is an aesthetic of play and that different computer games share it; or maybe there is a quality of experience of some computer games that elevates them. This gets tricky as if one asks a philosopher why one painting is art and another is not – there’s no short or universally agreed answer. But people agree that paintings can be art – that is can give rise to an aesthetic experience etc. So I think the best I can do is layout a set of criteria and then others can argue whether any given game or gameplay experience meets them or not – these will differ based on person etc.

12.

c3 s > i think you might want to examine the history of "artifacts as art" that are based on the "changes that occur to it and viewer while being interacted upon by a viewer" and what that thinking means in the examination of "art". i think youll find that there is no "aesthetic" per say to find in the traditional meaning, but only a "gestalt"-overall feeling- to the entire process.

I’m not really sure what you are getting at. I’m coming from a fairly traditional 20C notion of aesthetic theory. I threw a little Kant in there for those that don’t quite get philosophers distinctions between things and the apprehension of things.

> experiential art. hamlet may always have the same fate, but how YOU FEEL about it, WILL and can change with time, and experience.

That’s why I noted in the original post “I see aesthetic response as intrinsically bi-directional”

13.


Ren>I’m saying the nature of the experience contains things that are common e.g. looking at pictures, and then a combination that is different from anything else I can think of.

Is it important that the pictures are on a screen? Or could they be 3D objects you see in the real world? Or objects you see in your imagination? If it's important they're on a screen, why?

>I’m talking much more about aesthetics than art.

OK, well I accept that the aesthetic experience of the player is important to a game's design, and that although it's framed by the game design itself it's also very often under the strong control of the individual player, too. However, that, too will have been accounted for by the designer.

What I don't accept is that the joint creation of this aesthetic experience is the dominant art of computer games.

>I’ve not made any comment on the act of design. But I have said that the design in-and-of-itself can have aesthetic qualities – these are distinct, in some ways, from the ones that come about through play.

I think you're under-appreciating game design. It's not something like programming or mathematics that can only be appreciated by a practitioner: players of games can and do read what the game designer is saying to them through the game. Game designs give rise to an aesthetic appreciation, but they also carry meaning.

Richard

14.

I've been reading on photography recently and there was this interesting argument of John Szarkowski about the emergence of a consciousness of photography. He claims that photographers learned from their own experiences and the multitude of other photographs being produced. With time, a shared vocabulary emerged, and the images became umistakably "photographs". His point is that this vision had no school or aesthetic theory than photograpy itself. So, a history of photography should refer to how photographers have become aware of, and have developed particular characteristic of the medium.
I wonder what you think about the "consciousness" of video games, and whether you could identify certain historical milestones in the emergence of a vision unique to video games.

15.

Leaning back and thinking about the way you speak of the institutional approach here, some thoughts popped up in mind. I'll try to summarize:

What you miss about the institutional approach here is that they ask questions like why and how. The emergence or presence of recognition as art is where their inquiry starts, not where it ends. Isn't it a bit naive to believe they just leave it by "yes, there are institutions that recognize games art, for example x, y, z".

The simplification of their approach would probably strike them as an symptom of institutionalization itself. Your approach to them becomes interesting to them at the point where you have no problem in writing them off as uninteresting: this write-off of theirs could be read as a gesture related to a certain degree of instiutionalization; a degree of institutionalization that makes redundant (or perceived as uninteresting) the question of institutionalization.

The confidence in answering the question "are games art?" with "of course they are" *is* the very subject of this approach. How come this confidence exists now, but couldn't exist 30 years ago? What has changed? What made it possible that this question can even be asked now? It's much more about archeology than about listing facts about institutions that say "yes, games are art."

The institutional approach, I believe, deals with the pleasure you find in playing with the functional approach. They would say that this pleasure is related to discourse and power, thus institution.

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