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Feb 27, 2011

Comments

1.

Close to the reasoning behind the Arctic Ice case, I wonder how the relationship between user and virtual items hasn't managed to escape the IP conundrum all these years to subscribe to a more directly attributed user/account schema. You may see this as something like our relationships with personal/professional telephone numbers. When initially allocated, these don't have much meaning. Invested with personal time and associations, however, they acquire sufficient significance to justify when I am changing telephone provider to retain the same number. That's one suggestion.
The Arctic Ice court kind of referred to this logic, as well as to the commercial relationship with the service provider, where the account is an open-ended development space, to be shaped at the discretion and capacity of the user. The provider had a duty to preserve/not to alter the content of the account.
In either approach there's no link to IP logic. And the concept of property is toned down, the personality-property argument being absorbed by market-friendly rationales of harmonised B2C relations.

2.

Ren>So, it looks like virtual items are something that more jurisdictions are seeing as capable of being stolen.

There's an extra layer that needs to be taken account of: some virtual items are capable of being stolen, but it's not a crime because that's part of the game. MUD1 had a STEAL command which caused the character of the person issuing it to attempt to transfer the object in question from the inventory of another character to their own character.

Context is everything...

Richard

3.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this aspect addressed in the case of eve online in the white paper cited

4.

Dean - Yes it was

Richard - As Dean notes, I have this in the white paper where I looked at the case of banking in SL and EvE. At one level exactly the same thing happened but of course contextually quite different things happened. I should have put this in the post and not expected everyone to read the white paper as actually it's a critical point, and one that I think both of us never miss an opportunity to push home i.e. that any law that might be put in place runs the great danger of unintended consequences.

This is one of the many reasons why I'm thinking that a non-state layer of regulation - which has people that know what they are taking about is a good idea, if the alterative is (probably) bad law. This is not a perfect solution, but there is no perfect solution that's attainable.

ren

5.

Nich,

>Close to the reasoning behind the Arctic Ice case, I wonder how the relationship between user and virtual items hasn't managed to escape the IP conundrum all these years to subscribe to a more directly attributed user/account schema. You may see this as something like our relationships with personal/professional telephone numbers. When initially allocated, these don't have much meaning. Invested with personal time and associations, however, they acquire sufficient significance to justify when I am changing telephone provider to retain the same number. That's one suggestion.

That’s an interesting one. As I’m pretty sure we don’t own our phone numbers and it’s not only one organization but an industry that has a duty of care toward them – in the EU this is defined I a Directive and in the UK it falls under the powers of Ofcom an industry regulator, and it seems that much of the world has put similar stuff in place.

>The Arctic Ice court kind of referred to this logic, as well as to the commercial relationship with the service provider, where the account is an open-ended development space, to be shaped at the discretion and capacity of the user. The provider had a duty to preserve/not to alter the content of the account.

Yes

>In either approach there's no link to IP logic. And the concept of property is toned down, the personality-property argument being absorbed by market-friendly rationales of harmonised B2C relations.

Nice thinking, I shall ponder on this more.

ren

6.

Ren>As Dean notes, I have this in the white paper where I looked at the case of banking in SL and EvE. At one level exactly the same thing happened but of course contextually quite different things happened. I should have put this in the post

It's not so much the post as the diagrams. If someone were to look at the diagrams, they wouldn't know that there were nested contexts. That doesn't mean I know how you'd represent it graphically, mind you..!

Because virtual worlds can simulate the real world, in theory anything you have in that diagram can be let to the virtual world with a different value. Furthermore, the virtual world itself could sub-let it to a world-within-world. For example, there could be (and probably are) stand-alone game sub-worlds in SL that have different ideas of the acceptability of, say, the stealability of objects to SL itself, which in turn could have a different idea to that of RL.

Richard

7.

Richard,
The main point of the diagrams was to show that there is a range of views of what virtual property current defined by legal jurisdiction, and also to show that the non-lawyer / policy / public view of property being a black and white thing is quite wrong also. There's a lot lot more to be said on all the points, it's the problem with trying to present things simply.
ren

8.

Ren,

I agree that the law is in flux and we'll get growing recognition of virtual property interests. But I'm not sure where you're going with this ultimately -- you're suggesting that non-state regulation will emerge? If so, how? And doesn't this already happen, essentially -- e.g. Blizzard shutting down the accounts of suspected gold-farmers?

9.

Very interesting work! Here are some comments.

* While Li hongchen case is surely the globally first known decision regarding virtual theft, in fact, it's not the first one. S. Korean criminal court have dealt with similar case since 2002. (Please see footnote #60 in my paper; http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=905748 ; The first decision was decided by a judge of Busan District Court on March 6th 2002)

*Unlike Dutch and UK court's decision, S. Korean Judges do not apply the "theft" clause of The Penal code to the case. Intead, they chose "infringement on another person's information" clause of the Act on Information Protection. That means virtual sword are not virtually treated as a sword in Korea; virtual item is not "nothing" but also not a "thing".

* Under The Game Industry Promotion Act, there is no discrimination between virtual currency exchanging and virtual items exchanging. Any currency/item earn by luck or abnormal play should not be trade, while, either one by human's sweat & normal play can be sold.

10.

Sorry. Here's the corrected URL on my paper. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1113327

11.

Unggi,
Interesting cases. I draw attention to the Arctic Ice one as there the judge explicitly rejected the argument that the virtual items were just a 'pile of bits' and did refer to them as the players property. I'm not sure tho if the person that took it was found and if so what they were charged with.

I'm trying to get away from property / not-property; thing / not- thing dichotomies so your notes on S. Korea are very interesting.

I have been trying to find the detail of some S. Korea cases but they have proved a little difficult to find on the web.

12.

Ren,

According to Gamer/Law blog, It seems not definitively certain that the UK court found virtual goods = property, because of the difficulty of accessing the court transcript.
http://goo.gl/SjVL9

At present in S. Korea, most of Highest Court transcripts & little selected lower court's are officially disclosed for the public(of course in Korean). So, it's near impossible to access to the rest decisions of lower courts except through news or dissertations.

This year in Korea, there are 2 big legal events on VW/game.

One is the movement of revising Game Act(that including so called cinderella clause;shut down game service online at night for protecting kids & youth's sound growth, and the clause to ban producing & distributing Bot programs),

the other is whether e-sports player can be qualified to the title of the neighboring right in copyright act just as violinist or actor(the case are pending in the lower court). http://goo.gl/aVj3h

--Unggi

13.

Unggi,
Thanks for the clarification on the UK decision. I think Gamer/Law is trying to track down the detail as it's an important case in the UK.
Glad to know it's not just my google skillz that are lacking on the Korean case side.
ren

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