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Dec 04, 2007

Comments

1.

Reading in online games? Certainly. A little bit anyway, in small chunks if you don't just close the quest window to get on with the game. How often does the average player read more than a few sentences at any given time? How does this compare to reading a book?

Interacting with others? Yes, there can be... if you're not just PvPing them. Or it might be the pervasive intra-guild drama, or short bursts of raid management. Yes I know, in many cases there's a lot of friendly conversation and strong relationships made, encouraged by the game experience. I wonder if his parents would be any less anxious if their jobless, feckless son was interacting with others, making friends, sharpening his spatial skills, and honing his economic skills down at the local pool hall? Somehow I doubt it.

And then we come to original ideas. Which ones were you thinking of, Greg? How many original ideas do you think the average MMOG player comes up with while playing the game on a session-by-session, or week-by-week basis? Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of any. Even the incidence of meaningful decisions requiring significant cognition are few and far between, even taking into account playing the Auction House on WoW, for example. In the vast majority of cases what we have instead is the ghosts of what feel like original ideas and significant thought, not the things themselves.

Let's not fool ourselves or, worse, people who consume games and are less familiar with the terrain. Let's not demonize games, certainly -- but let's also not lionize them as fonts of meaningful personal interaction and original thought, or minimize the issues surrounding people like a healthy 20yo who apparently does nothing else but play online.

I love games. I love creating them and I enjoy playing them. But I feel saddened and a bit embarrassed when I hear of yet another person who has become swallowed up in some game to the exclusion of all else. No, this isn't everyone or even most people (please, spare me your "hey I play games all the time and I'm okay"), but it's also far from a novelty to hear about people doing little else but playing online at every opportunity.

It's also an unfortunate fantasy -- one which in some ways the game industry has fed -- that if you play games all day every day, you too can get a spiffy rock star job in the game industry (which is apparently this guy's only -- and terribly misplaced -- ambition). In case anyone is unclear on this, with a high school diploma, a series of failed part-time jobs, and a bag full of gaming experience, your job application for even the lowliest of positions in a game development house will head for the trash.

My advice to the parents of this 20yo guy would be to meter his time online (technologically if necessary, or simply by the expedient of removing the power cord) and make it proportional to his progress toward taking some kind of class that would move him toward being able to work in a non-fast-food job, even potentially one in the game industry (various community colleges do have such programs, though their value hasn't yet been shown).

My hope for the rest of us -- creators, consumers, and commentators on games -- is that we will own up to the issues that current game designs create, not turn a blind eye to them. And I hope that with future games we'll "move out of our parents' basements" as it were, and create designs that appeal to those who have done so -- or should do so.

2.

Boy, where to start with this one, huh? There's so much that's ignorant here.

In the end, I guess this is an example of how this new thing, engaging virtual world games, are shaking up societies. Sure there's a problem here, but let's understand it and look for a reasonable response.

From decades of watching teens grow up, I'd bet that that 20-year-old will find some direction in the next 5 years sometime. And by treating him like a child (i.e., letting him live in their house and do as he pleases), they aren't helping the issue. The guy could be the next Will Wright if he gets some focus, which tends to happen when you have to pay rent and buy your own graphics cards.

The guy's intense game focus (note I didn't say addiction...) is probably more a symptom of a larger issue, not the primary problem.

What if the WashPo writer had suggested Ted's "Exodus to the Virtual World" for the parents to read? :)

3.

If someone is addicted to virtual world, are the roots of the addiction lie in the virtual world? Or maybe its a problem of the real one, which seems to be too much uncomfortable for a young man? He's 20 years old and he's bearded. He is not interested in life. VW is a problem! That's easy to say. He likes heroine - the problem is heroine! He likes MJ - the problem is MJ! Let's jail all those programmers, designers and artists with all the drug-dealers to one cell. Is that the way out?
How many active healthy people have you seen, who play virtual games all the day? How many successful people have you seen, who take heroine? Is that because they're so smart for not to try? Or maybe that's because they're just not interested? Why there not interested in such activities?
How to deal with it? Do you really think that you may stop someone from doing something by reading books? I would say for myself. I was the guy like him. I was out of university twice because of games. There was nothing, absolutely nothing as interesting for me as computer games. But time heal. He would heal by himself. Or die playing. That's life - and that's his choice.

P.S. Or just kick him off the house to make him build life of his own.

4.

iTzing said: "Or just kick him off the house to make him build life of his own."

This worked for my family in a similar situation.

No chance metering software would have worked - he was too good a hacker.

Randy

5.

"he's 20 now, he's passed only one or two classes in his two years at community college and he quits every part-time job he gets"

Yeah. Sounds like games are definitely the problem. I am just glad this kid found games before he found vodka or gambling.

Even better, from the same article:

"She finds nearly all gamers have a mood disorder, anxiety or attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder or relate to objects better than to people. She says the majority of them are male, bright, shy, bored and have poor social skills and low self-esteem. They're after the fun, peace, relaxation and the sense of belonging they get when they play, but when addicted, they lose far more than they gain."

She is talking about YOU!

Although, I must confess, the article did make me feel depressed, anxious, and unable to sit still. And it did nothing for my low self-esteem.

6.

"From decades of watching teens grow up, I'd bet that that 20-year-old will find some direction in the next 5 years sometime."

/agree

7.

How can you expect an honest discussion on addiction in virtual worlds on a forum where virtual worlds is the primary focus?

That's like talking about alcoholism at a bar in Jack Daniels country.

There is no reading in Everquest2. Let's not fool ourselves. People don't really read quest prompts - they click through - alt+tab to Alakazam - read highlights of the quest walkthrough - alt+tab back to the game - mindless follow walkthrough. The amount of reading is minimal at best.

To be sure, some players engage in 'academic' behaviors. I am amazed at those people who statistically analyze combat parses in an attempt at finding the best combination of spells and weapons. But these people are very few and very far between.

And interaction? Do you read the chat window? The anonymous nature of virtual worlds allow people to be just plain mean. Time and time again players are attacked for not having 'leet' gear or not being hardcore. The things I have seen in the chat window I'd be hard pressed to imagine in a face-to-face conversation.

Some might argue that MMOs are better than books because of the interactive nature. I'd argue that a well written book will immerse me more than they typical online game. Hyperion immersed me more than Everquest2. No doubt about it.

At the end of the day the real question is productivity. If you spend your leisure time in a virtual world rather than watching reruns of Law and Order then there is no real issue. But if you are spending your primary time - the time when you need to be productive - engaged in dragon slaying then there is a big problem.

How many PhDs have never been earned because of Everquest2?

8.

The best advice for this young man was given by Aristotle over 2 millenia ago...everything in moderation. Play in moderation and you'll be just fine. You may even find that you enjoy it more.

9.

"That's like talking about alcoholism at a bar in Jack Daniels country."

If only.

***

Somebody sounds like James G-man.

10.
To be sure, some players engage in 'academic' behaviors. I am amazed at those people who statistically analyze combat parses in an attempt at finding the best combination of spells and weapons. But these people are very few and very far between.

This isn't really academic behavior per se, it's more like min-maxer or more broadly bitheadish. Academic behavior would be more like players who just talk about narrative structure in quests, or the social meaning of forced grouping or forced behavior along class archetypes. I just made that up, but I wanted to make the point that doing a rain man routine on the output window of your combat stats would be trivial to most disciplines if not all -- and probably only of interest to someone trying to reverse-engineer different simulation systems.

Of course studying why some people min-max and others don't could probably be very serious work for someone (actually I think The Daedalus Project probably touched on some of that stuff).

11.

"How can you expect an honest discussion on addiction in virtual worlds on a forum where virtual worlds is the primary focus?

That's like talking about alcoholism at a bar in Jack Daniels country."

Well I guess we could have an honest discussion on addiction in virtual worlds at a bar in Jack Daniels country if you think it would be a better venue. You have a bar in mind?

12.

Let's hope he's attacked by a moose and he remembers to feign death. Then it will all be worth it.... :)

13.

We can't expect the media to "get" virtual worlds any more than any other special interest they target. We just have to live with it. There is an element of truth to all this however. Yes, certain members of society - such as the young man in this case - are more vulnerable than others and yes, that vulnerability is no one else's fault. But... He is also the target MMO customer. Put a skinner box in front of this man and he is enthralled. Loser in real life? You can be a high achiever online!

I think it is perfectly reasonable to have a debate on the ethics of the Skinner box and the grind.

14.

I agree with kicking him out of the house.

Give him 200$ and just kick him out. Tell him to see if WoW will feed him for longer than a week.

15.

Mike Sellers>My advice to the parents of this 20yo guy would be to meter his time online

I'd also suggest that they play the game themselves for a couple of weeks, although I doubt they'd do it. From their point of view, it would be like a drug pusher telling them to take heroin in order to understand what their child is going through.

thoreau>How many PhDs have never been earned because of Everquest2?

Far fewer than have never been earned because of television.

Richard

16.

"thoreau says:

How can you expect an honest discussion on addiction in virtual worlds on a forum where virtual worlds is the primary focus?"

That was unfair;
TN is less of a forum and more of a discussions board ; i saw here game-makers , designers , who openly started the talk with the assertion : " we use to design/make the games highly addictive , for various motives ".
That's why a game-forum is a fanbois place and TN is a place where ppls can openly talk : because the criticism is seen as an useful constructive tool, not as a mean of accusations.

Put that young man to earn his own daily bread , and he will be fine; if not, that can mean only two things : he already've played too much , or he was a bad apple from the beginning.

The education starts at home , and to me it looks kinda "late" to blame the online addictive environments when the victim is 20 years ....old.

The online environments can be dangerous...guess what : life can be dangerous.

17.

Addictions can be overcome, why dont the parents help him with the idea of getting in on programming games, instead they prob just commenting on him not having a job or doing anything, only increasing the desire to play the games and sink into mindlessness

I wish someone have of when I was that age, I was in a very similar position, and had no support at all pursing it (still dont)

I'm now 26, I'm earning more then my parents ever earnt combined, and I enjoy my work (shame its only the industry, not game programming) but i'm still persisting on that so one day :)

18.

I've been telling some of my money-worrying guildmates which life priorities should be putting up first: their real lives over their online lives so that they don't regret by the time the lifetime of the game comes at an end. Self-control always begins with the player himself/herself.

I may be several levels lower than my guildmates towering over me while they powergrind for days, but I know better.

19.

Let's not fool ourselves. People don't really read quest prompts - they click through - alt+tab to Alakazam - read highlights of the quest walkthrough - alt+tab back to the game - mindless follow walkthrough.

Maybe that's how you do it, sir, but I'm playing for the story; not reading the quest text would rather defeat that purpose. And while I have been known to avail myself of the services of Thottbot or WoWWiki when I get stuck, I generally make at least a stab at working things out on my own.

I'd think the walkthrough-drone would be the guy who just wants to get to the endgame (raiding in WoW, e.g.) in the minimum time. And there are a lot more of us for whom "endgame"="game over" than there are raiders.

20.

I'd be a lot more inclined to read the material in MMOG's if any of it were worth reading. Most of it is horribly juvenile. If I want story I'll stick to books, movies and the occasional gem like Half-Life 2 or Portal.

I also think it's interesting that there is basically no debate in this thread now that games can in fact be addictive. Wasn't there some controversy over this exact same question a few months back?

21.

Oh rubbish. He's not addicted to a game, he's addicted to his helicopter parents subsidizing his lifestyle. Time for the birdie to leave the nest.

22.

I'm 25 years old... at 20 I was an adult and had held full time jobs for 5 years by then, not because my parents couldn't supply me with -everything- I wanted, but because they believed I should know how to do the same for myself.

I know games are games... and I love them. I also know about addictions, and addictions don't qualify anymore as games. You do not harbour heroin addicts and you don't buy them heroin then ask the doctors what's wrong.

You kick him out of the house, stop paying for college, and stop paying for his game. If he chooses the game and he can support himself while doing it, fine. If he chooses to stop the game, you pay for college and help him back into the real world. He either sinks or swims... and when he can't pay for WOW anymore... well I guess the problem solves itself. The myth that he needs any more help than being given the push to take responsibility for himself is in serious need of clearing up.

23.

Oh... and I play WOW and sorry... its just not fun anymore when you realize its the same fight over and over. The same quest flavor text over and over with different nouns. Level 110 cap will be no more fun than the level 80 cap.

24.

Every time a parent says to me "my child is addicted to video games and only wants to work in the game industry" -- as though a gamer wanting to work in the game industry is as bad as a drug addict becoming a drug dealer -- my response is to tell them to point their child towards Quality Assurance work with a game studio. If a person who is "addicted" to games excels at creating games, then they truly love games and simply find everything else boring in comparison. But if they can't be bothered to try to get a job in QA, or quit a QA job, then they're really just addicted to being lazy.

It's a dirty little secret in the game industry that there are hundreds of hugely successful developers who do not have a college degree -- because all they wanted to do was play games, so they failed out of college. But they took that love of playing games and parlayed it into a successful career making games. A career which, by the by, strongly encourages playing video games.

25.

I got my job by playing a lot of games and doing volunteer work for the company I was eventually hired by. Getting my degree doubtless helped, but that stuff got my foot through the door, and drove my parents nuts.

The whole thing seems a bit open to me, although I only read the quotes and the comments here - I don't see anything that's indicating if he's simply playing a game, or if he's actually doing things that will help attract positive attention to himself. Is he contributing to community sites, developing mods or UI enhancements, submitting bug reports etc?

It's definitely possible that he's a lazy, good for nothing sob who's just taking advantage of not having to do anything, or it could be that nobody involved really appreciates or understands the things that he is doing.

He definitely should be trying to get qualifications though. I don't care how many people in the games industry don't have them, they're always a useful thing to have to fall back on and show competency (or at least that you can stick with something, which seems to be the issue here).

26.

@ Daniel & others : if you look at Timothy Burke 's recent thread , you'll have to admitt : having the experience/background/expertise of whatever a VW could teach you....you simply stand no chance against a Tim's student , in the Real World of Virtual Worlds and Games Industry. Making a living from making games is a hard task to perform and the competition is " sharky "- if such a term even exist.

27.

Methinks the Post doesn't read itself:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/08/17/DI2006081700707.html

and the accompanying article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081700625.html

I still can't believe I typed all of that in an hour and a half. That's my excuse for the typos!

28.

The problem doesn't necessarily end when the guy has been kicked out of his parents' house though. The term "cat piss" is famous for a reason.

29.

"lewy says:

The problem doesn't necessarily end when the guy has been kicked out of his parents' house though. The term "cat piss" is famous for a reason. "

Sure, it doesn't necessarily; afterall we could invent/innovate/emerge a problem any time it fits...

In your opinion, what's the most important /significant term there : the cat, the piss or the reason ? My guess is : it's the smell.

30.

I'm thinking of the famous forum story where the poster finds out that he lives close to a guild mate who has got everything. He drops by to find an apartment filled with piles of rotting garbage and redolent with the aroma of cat piss.

31.

If he focused his energy on something positive (like getting a job in gaming) his parents may suddenly be proud. I would suggest that he not limit himself to one company - there are hundreds of studios that are always looking for help. If you are interested in a job in video games, visit http://www.GameJobHunter.com/ where you can post your resume for free and get connected to a video game job in your area.

32.

You know, as I have read through these responses I have sensed an appropriate anger directed at yet another bash on the Multi-User Virtual World industry. In addition to that, there is a sadly inappropriate gripe on the literary value of MMORPGs.

I will concede that MMORPGs as they stand are lacking in true substance and content. They are still just variations on the hack and slash meted-out ability format that is a grind. The entire industry has yet to create something more than this general format.

What I will defend is potential. Today I put the final quotes and citations on a 37 page paper I am turning in as part of my graduate studies. The topic: World Building Narrative. I have developed an understandable theory explaining the structure of narrative in MMORPGs. Ironically, it is a structure the creators of this narrative form have yet to recognize and directly employ.

My hope is, after I have appropriately developed the final version of the proposition of a new narrative form used in MMORPGs that industry professionals will be able to read my work and turn the shallow content currently found in MMORPGs into something far more substantial.

Stop bashing on the lack of literary worth in these VWs and change them up. At least then, when the question of addiction comes up, it will be easier to defend the genera because we then will be able to check that pesky “its not reading” off the blame-layers cache of stock finger pointing material.

... now, all I need is to secure a forum or a journal willing to publish my work when I feel the time is appropriate... a year or so should do it.

33.

"...What I will defend is potential."

We also defend moral's potential; after at least 2000 years and tons of papers, we still don't have much to show ...

"They are still just variations on the hack and slash meted-out ability format that is a grind."

34.

We also defend moral's potential; after at least 2000 years and tons of papers, we still don't have much to show ..."

The field of MMORPG design is still young. Though the Gutenberg Bible was printed in the mid 1400s it was a few hundred years before the printing press and the resulting medium was fully utilized. Printing and writing was strictly controlled for a long time. print was mainly in the hands of technicians and the religious leadership.

MMORPGs have a similar status right now. There is definitely an art to developing MMORPGs but it is still more like codex art in its implementation. There are writers for content but no true authors just yet.

Hell, as far as I know there are not any literary theorists on any dev staff working as literary theorists. This is would be the fault of both English Studies scholars (for not recognizing the true potential and validity of MMORPGs) and developers of MMORPGs (for not being able to see beyond the tip of their nose). I lay less fault at the feet of developers than I do the scholars. At least with them, if they see and recognize a good idea, they will attempt to incorporate it in their development scaffold.

As far as I have been able to find through several years of active research I may be the only person, or one of the very few, looking at MMORPGs in mainstream English scholarship instead of a sub-discipline. If I am wrong in this I hope someone calls me on that assumption soon. I am very much alone in my work, which is part of the reason i am starting to post on TN.

Academically English Studies is still only looking at MUDs and MOOs, though there are a couple of works supposedly in the publishing cycle right now that are going to look at MMORPGs coming out of and for the discipline of English Studies: New Media Studies. Still, none of them are looking at them through the lens of Narrative Theory or Narratology as far as I know.

It is my belief that until this happens the literature content will have no chance to advance. With out critical examination the “technicians and priests” will continue to create grinds rather than true content with depth equivalent to that of a book or movie.

35.

@ Angel XIII : i don't know what Bible are you talking about , i've personally saw 18 of them , each one different from the other.

"...the literature content will have no chance to advance. With out critical examination the “technicians and priests” will continue ..."

to advance where ? to promote US and UK's moral norms and practices ?! That's already a niche.
Unless you manage to make mandatory the playing of games, worldwide.

36.

There is precious little literary merit in single player games. I think there is basically none to speak of in MMOG's.

I've argued consistently that MMOG's lag a few years behind their single player brethren.
For instance, no single player game goes on and on and on anymore. There's always a final battle, a boss level, whatever--the game wraps up. We don't expect a novel or a movie to just keep going and going and going. Why should a game, even a massively multiplayer game?

That said I do envy those folks who have the opportunity to work at a company like Valve. Games are just now going through a tremendous renaissance in terms of creativity and innovation. It must be a tremendously exciting time to work in the industry. I'm sure MMOG's will eventually catch up.

37.

Thoreau says: "Do you read the chat window?" ... "There is no reading in Everquest2."

Which is it?

38.

To answer that, you might look here:

http://website.education.wisc.edu/steinkuehler/mmogresearch.html

There's plenty of "reading" in MMOGs. I think the criticism implied is that the reading that takes place has less personal and social value than the reading that takes place with respect to, say, Tolstoy's War and Peace.

39.

greglas, with all due respect and consideration :
in theory, a butterfly's fart in Hong Kong can change humanity's fate. In reality, it's extremelly improbable , thus 100 % not a reason of concerns.
No, the criticism is : it has no significant cultural personal and social value, but only creates issues. For MMOGs participants , their families and the society at large. I hope you aint gonna endorse terms like " bad qualities " and " negative value ".

40.

"The time your son spends on the computer is time that he's not reading a book, not creating an original idea, not jogging in the park, not interacting with people and not improving his social skills. He is putting life on hold."

This is the best thing i've ever seen written on this issue.

"Because, as we all know, when a 20-year old plays an online game, there's very little reading or creating original ideas or interacting with people. Life is just on hold, as you maneuver PacMan around Azeroth munching pellets and zapping space invaders."

This is the worst.

41.

that is great ,i won't let my son play the game all day and night

42.

"There's plenty of "reading" in MMOGs. I think the criticism implied is that the reading that takes place has less personal and social value than the reading that takes place with respect to, say, Tolstoy's War and Peace."

In a nut shell, thats exactly what I am getting at.

I'm not criticizing what MMORPGs are, I'm asking why are they not being developed into something more than what they are(?)... thats what my graduate degree is all about. I'm trying to make them more than they are.


There was a much longer response, which I still have saved, but it was rejected as potential spam.

I'm going to dork around tomorrow and try to get it up here.

43.

i think you've never played a game in your live im just starting on playing games and they are awesome.
i am also addicted but idk really care. its fun and i make friends.

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45.

I have been reading a lot of topics on this site for a while now. The thing that caught my eye about this thread is it's diversity in responses.

So here's my 2 cents.

Being Dutch and also a (heavy)consumer, my view might see this "addiction" less as a problem as many of you will. (In Holland canabis is "allowed" for personal use, partly keeping it out of the criminal scene. And accepting it as a way to unwind, like a glass of wine after work. Resulting in a consistend percentage of the countries young adults experimenting and after that finding their (productive)way in sosciety.)

I do understand the concerns of the parents when they see their child behind his computer day and night. Kicking your child out of the house is an effective way to make him deal with his own Sh*t, but also seems like a last effort solution to me.

There is very little "reading" in games;
In Holland we have subtitles to foreign movies, while watching an average legth film, we read a small book (in 90-105 mins. of time). I believe following the chat in an MMORPG's does add up!
Also as an added bonus, almost everybody speaks English in Holland!

There is very little "creating original thoughts" in games;
Please explain that one to me. Because I doubt that not playing games DOES produce "original" thoughts. Most things we think about are just the same things over and over again. What to make for dinner, should or shouldn't I wear this shirt.
Sure every now and again you might come up with a new dish, or even make a fashion statement. But we aren't all the new "Jamie Oliver" or trent starters. So by adding different spices to your food or finding a different way to down a boss in a game...you still have to use your imagination.

There is very little interacting with people in games.
Well that one is just silly. MMORPG's are all ABOUT interacting with "other" people. I think that it is essential to socialize in a MMORPG in order to succeed. In an hour of gaming I may have more interaction with other's then a whole day of work. First having to find a group to even be able to start a quest. Be capable of fullfilling a certain task within that group to complete an assignment. Communicate with them through limited means (text only, and sometimes even voice). Missing a lot of information in the form of facial expression and other bodylanguage. Compensate for the fact that others may be living at the other end of the world and might not be able to express themselves fully in English if it is not their native language.
I think my point is clear :)

As for the addictive part of playing MMORPG's, well...anything might become an addiction. We all have to find balance between the things we need to do in order to sustain our life (and the way we live it). And the things that bring us pleassure, be it reading a book, having sex, drinking a beer or even playing a game. Or to summorize; all that gives us a break from the missery that we call the "reality" of our daily lives.

So my advice...keep the positive (side)effects that playing games can bring. From being able to communicate to strangers, manage your managing skills, improve multi-tasking and problem solving skills. To dealing with defeat and victory!
In short learn to apply your VW assets in meatspace in a way that best suits your personality!

And ask your son this...does he think that "Epic gear" comes from sitting on his Azeroth all day? No?!
Guess what...having a degree might very well mean the difference of having green gear apposed to having purple!
Let him ponder on that for a while.

Best of luck!
Stopping now, 'cause I need to satisfy my addiction again ; )

Vincent

46.

PS: I am sorry if I have written some things wrong! I should watch my chat better to improve my grammar.

47.

Im not sure what possible disciplinary role a parent of a 20yo morally has. The 20yo is fully within rights to tell the folks to cut that shit out. puzzling story.

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