Better dating through MMOs

Meeting potential romantic partners in MMOs is often seen as bad idea.

The case against: the medium is too thin to establish a ‘real’ relationship, there is too high a chance of projection or out-right deception and everyone online is supposed to be playing a role anyway.

At the recent Sex in Video Games conference, artist and now game maker Andrea Fryer spoke up for the medium suggesting that meeting in MMOs has advantages over traditional dating. Here she summarizes the case for romance in MMOs:

Would you be shocked if I told you that not only are game-spawned relationships common, but I'd also claim they are one of the best ways to get to know someone, especially if you are a big city person in the western culture where people are so careful, picky and paranoid when it comes to romance.

Please note that actually meeting someone compatible in a game may prove to be more challenging though. Even though souls easily connect, other things may not. For instance he's 19 & lives with his mom and she is a 35 year-old housewife. Notwithstanding this let’s consider different ways people get to know each other through three example set ups:

Classic dating
- couple meet "in the flesh" - at a bar, gym, etc. They go on dates, have fun, enjoy romantic dinners and have great sex. Each are convinced that the other must surely be the most charming person in the world. What a wonderful, intoxicating time indeed. But not once are they a) put in danger b) attacked c) forced to deal with conflict, so of course it's easy to be charming. In fact, they'll probably be on their very best behavior for months on end and their worst sides may remain in hibernation - for years even.

Internet dating
- couple meet online then find themselves chatting every evening, sending long, deep emails etc. But it's really the same thing as above and even worse, since with textual communication they are able to carefully think about every word they write. The bottom line is that they have total control over the image they present to the other and can appear to be Mister/Miss Dream. What's there to stop them?

Game dating
- couple meet (either live/online/in the game) and decide to spend time together in-game. They have now stepped into an arena which has removed much of their control over fate and the couple are subjected to a whole array of spontaneous situations which demand immediate reaction, bringing out either the best or the worst in the other person. Let's look at some example scenarios:

Our couple has been trying to slay a dragon for two hours, have died for the 20th time and the last of their armor is broken. Anyone would be irritated at this point, but who is mature enough to laugh it off and show some positive attitude, like suggesting they try again the next day, and instead go on a mountaintop picnic for now? Then again, who is childish or short tempered enough to storm off fuming because it was you that messed up during most of those attempts. Who starts giving sermons about how things are really done?

- Couple encounters a treasure chest in the middle of the woods. Within, is one of the best weapons in the game, something they've both been needing for a very long time. Signs of greed / graciousness? Maturity in priorities, what matters more, making their honey happy or the stupid virtual weapon?

- Couple are confronted by some rude idiots in a tavern (people tend to instigate conflict easier in a game). A perfect opportunity to watch how intelligently / aggressively / cowardly / valorously the other reacts. Please note that there are no right reactions, it's all a matter of taste. So while one person would cringe at the other telling the intruders off aggressively, another may beam with pride and find it very sexy.

- Couple adventure into a dungeon and are suddenly surrounded by a group of monsters. In this particular situation, it's possible for one of the two to get out alive, but only if the other defends, dying in the process. Will they do that for you? Or flee like a coward and leave you there stranded?

In summary: MMO relationships are playing the fast forward button to getting to know someone. As mentioned in one of the articles in the Daedelus project, Inside Out, "you get to know someone inside out".

- Andrea

The points that Andrea makes are not only interesting of interest for how we view MMOs but also, as she noted in her intervention at the time, may be crucial to the business models of the raft of new online-dating games we keep hearing about. To quote Andrea again “dating is more than just discovering sexual chemistry together”.

Comments

[Bruce Baugh]

1.

I've been saying it for years: I like meeting minds before bodies.

[Mike Rozak]

2.

http://www.mxac.com.au/drt/DatingGame.htm

[Pietoro]

3.

Lol, the value on someone 'giving their life' for me in a computer game, is really pretty low.

[Any mouse]

4.

- Couple are confronted by her guildmates who, missing their friend, tells him that she has five alts on this server, each of which have significant others that she brings to the same tavern.

[John Bilodeau]

5.

I'm assuming that none of the RL genders of the people involved actually matter... is that correct?

[Heather Cowan]

6.

"Lol, the value on someone 'giving their life' for me in a computer game, is really pretty low." Posted by: Pietoro | Oct 2, 2006 12:13:01 AM

I disagree. The value in EQ1 of either a friend's or lover's willingness to sacrifice what could mean hours of their gameplay to save my virtual life was quite real to me. It meant quite a bit more than some guy spending a fortune on dinner and drinks, I can tell you that. When someone makes the split second decision to put your enjoyment over their own, your advancement of your character (and remember that debt was substantial in EQ1) over their advancement of their character, plus undergo the trial of corpse retrieval in your stead, then that was a meaningful sacrifice. No, nothing like taking a bullet for you in real life. But it wasn't trivial. It often meant literally hours and hours of the person's time in catching back up to where they had left off. And that is valuable. Also a valuable thing to know about a person's character.

I started a five year relationship through EQ1. And while that didn't work out, I can say that the guy in question was substantially the same in his interactions in RL as he was in his interactions with people in EQ. While it's certainly possible for a pathological liar to hide their personality in an online game, they can do that in RL too, and I've had friends in RL who were just as easily deceived by people who pretended to be something other than what they were as those of us can be who have met people online. Of course, you take precautions when meeting people for the first time. You do the same with a blind date. And a raid or a tough instance run is a much better indication of how someone will react to stressors than a date. I think there's a lot to say for taking the initial "blindness" of physical attraction out of the equation and concentrating on personality instead. People do react in an online game, in my experience, at least after the first few occasions, much as they do normally.

I would also say that too many of you discount the frequent use of VOIP these days. RL gender in a guild like mine is always known. We have guys that play female toons, but it's hardly hidden. And VOIP ups the level of intimacy rather dramatically, as well as taking out a lot of that ability to carefully craft what you're saying to someone.

Finally, I'll note that particularly when meeting someone who has stuck with a game like EQ2 (my game), I am in a population that is pre-selected for things I find of interest much more pointedly than any online dating service. Gaming, sci-fi/fantasy fans, computers....they even tend to stay up late. I've found far more in common with the average EQ player than I ever have with most co-workers or classmates when I was in college. Not even mentioning bars. We won't go there.

On the whole, though, I have to agree with Andrea. Of course, that might be because I'm pursuing my second online romance at the moment, after two months of three hour conversations in Ventrilo after groups and raids. We'll see how it goes after we meet in a couple of months! But I like what I've learned through my many hours of online observation. And that's a lot more hours than I would have had the chance to interact with someone I'd met in a bar. LOL. At least if I was spending eight hours a day around someone I'd met in a bar in RL....I'd have to just about be living with them.

[John Bilodeau]

7.

Just to clarify: my question was not about people's ability to disguise their gender. I meant something more along the lines of: "You are dating the toon, not the player, correct?"

[Michael Chui]

8.

You are dating the toon, not the player, correct?

No, they're talking about dating the player.

One of my friends, when I showed this thread to him, immediately brought up the subject of roleplaying. In truth, playing a role is such an incredibly niche activity that not only are most people incapable of conceiving of a believable character, but those that try usually end up with the equivalent of author surrogates. The level of intensity during which you need to maintain that role is one of the reasons why we actually have professionals doing movies; they don't grab some random hot person off the street. They want someone who's been trained to maintain a role under pressure.

On the flip side of this, there is Richard Bartle's depiction of immersion, which discusses the matter of identifying yourself with your avatar and at a certain point, there isn't really a meaningful distinction. So when someone insults your toon, you feel insulted. When your toon moves around, you are moving around.

So, I would say that Andrea's line of argument is harder to apply to people who are competent actors, who are experienced with having a different persona, but for the majority of people, it's quite plausible.

[John Bilodeau]

9.

so the relationships under discussion form independently of non-verbal communication? The toon is the stand-in for our body language, our chemistry,etc...

These 'better dates' function only on the level verbal signals?

I understand the thesis regarding behavioural stressors, but i'm wondering what makes up for the missing bodies?

[Andy Havens]

10.

@John -- The supposition here is that dating in an MMO is a good/better precursor to live dating. Or that, in some ways, an MMO eLationship may be more "true" than an early level RLationship.

I don't buy it in the big scheme. Why? Because I'm a good liar in real life... But I'm superb in VWs/MMOs. Because that's what the "RPG" in MMORPG is all about. And while you may be able to learn about somebody's mode of playing a game and a few things about their personality online... you are only learning what they choose to reveal. And, yes, yes, yes... that holds true in RL, sure. But we are born with and then become incredibly advanced by an early age at being able to read thousands of very subtle signs that tell us things about people in RL.

What I mean is that I may not be a nice guy in RL, but I sure as hell can play one in Azeroth. I may not be able to fake a sense of humor or a higher IQ (those are tough), but a lot else can be ameliorated through the interface. And anyone with half an ounce of sense can pull the smartest move in the world for when you're trying to impress someone -- shut up -- and come across as mysterious, smart and suave.

Andrea says about the RL couple that, "...not once are they a) put in danger b) attacked c) forced to deal with conflict." Wrong on two counts. First, RL dating is dangerous from an ego-conflict and vulnerability standpoint in a way that virtual contact almost never is. And never forced to deal with conflict? Come on? Who has she dated? Have they all gone that well? And, second -- and here's the real rub -- in MMOs, the erstwhile couple is actually never put into any daner, attacked or in conflict either.

It's "virtual." It's a game. You get out what you put in.

Have I made great friends online? Sure. In games? Yes. Have I evaluated intelligence, sense of humor, robustness of ego? Yup. Do I have really great friends that I've never met, that I have only known in IM, email and chat rooms? You bet.

I think.

I have also known people through virtual/electronic venues that, when I have met them, turned out to be diametrically different than the personnnae they more-or-less created online. I have had people say to me, for example, "You're really very much in real life like what you're blog posts are like." Which I take as a compliment, because I blog in my own voice. Purposefully." I also had a friend tell me that one experience with me as a GM, in one particularly harsh adventure, was the only one he ever wanted to do under my GM-ship again. In his words, "You're not Andy when you GM. You scared me." Well, in that role, in that game, many of the NPCs were really, really evil. And to play them, I had to be them, to an extent, for those few days-worth of play. That made him uncomfortable as my friend. Fair enough.

But we weren't ever going to date, eh?

[Andrea Fryer]

11.

Mike Rozak: "http://www.mxac.com.au/drt/DatingGame.htm"
* Thanks for the link. Although quite self evident to a veteran MMORPG player, the descriptions in this article are an utter eye-opener for those who have never tried this genre of games. I'll be using it next time someone asks me what the big deal is about MMORPGs.

Pietoro: "Lol, the value on someone 'giving their life' for me in a computer game, is really pretty low."
* Well, Heather beat me to it. She responded to you pretty much word for word how I would have done. Just out of curiosity, what types of scenarios do -you- find valuable for judging character, when dealing with real life, face to face dating situations?

Any mouse: "Couple are confronted by her guild mates who, missing their friend, tells him that she has five alts on this server, each of which have significant others that she brings to the same tavern."
* Hehe, that was undoubtedly amusing, and I wouldn't be surprised if something like that were to really happen. Then again it's not uncommon for people in real life to be juggling several romantic interests at the same time either. *smirks*

John Bilodeau: "I'm assuming that none of the RL genders of the people involved actually matter... is that correct?"
* For some people, RL gender has little significance, it's the personality they fall for primarily. For me personally, as long as things are kept in the arena of role play, RL gender does not matter too much, although it will affect how immersed I can get into my character's feelings. As for falling for that person in a true sense, the RL gender matters to me significantly. But let me just clarify something: When my character meets another character and no RL related conversation has taken place, yes - it's only our characters falling in love. At this point RL gender has no say. But if we spend weeks, even months together, it becomes self evident that we really enjoy each other's company and are charmed by each other's personalities. Sometimes this may be a mere platonic admiration, a liking, but sometimes the connection goes past all that. So, we may start to reveal tiny bits here and there about our RL selves. If things such as gender, age, life situation, tastes etc match, it's most likely feelings may progress from there.

Heather: I whole heartedly agreed with everything you said, and whilst my words were a mere stunted summary, you unfolded many of the same points in depth. I'm so glad you spoke up! And good luck with this fella you've met!

Heather: "People do react in an online game, in my experience, at least after the first few occasions, much as they do normally."
* I agree, and it's a well known fact that people will even tend to be much more revealing about their true character online in general due to the safety of being tucked away behind one's computer at home. This fact is only magnified in split second decision scenarios.

Heather: "Gaming, sci-fi/fantasy fans, computers....they even tend to stay up late. I've found far more in common with the average EQ player than I ever have with most co-workers or classmates when I was in college. Not even mentioning bars. We won't go there."
* Nod nod nod!

Heather: "And that's a lot more hours than I would have had the chance to interact with someone I'd met in a bar. LOL. At least if I was spending eight hours a day around someone I'd met in a bar in RL....I'd have to just about be living with them."
* 'Nuff said.

Michael Chui: "So, I would say that Andrea's line of argument is harder to apply to people who are competent actors, who are experienced with having a different persona, but for the majority of people, it's quite plausible."
* Whilst I agree that professional actors are able to control their emotions and immersion -more- than the rest of us, even -they- are weak to the powers of human nature. Last year my character met another, and they fell for each other. It was pure RP at this point. But as described above, things progressed. Turns out he was very much taken, in fact, preparing for his wedding. He was also a professional actor and I remember all the serious OOC (Out of character) discussion we had to have once in a while, to keep the rules of our interaction straight. How many times we chanted that it's "only role play". He'd often refer to the golden rules an actor works by, the methods they use to keep the character separate from themselves, how they manage their emotions. And he'd keep reminding me how he is using these methods in our interaction. Not that I needed any cooling off, for I was being completely respectful towards the fact that he is a taken man and aimed to keep everything in pure role play, but he later revealed he needed to chant these things more for himself than for me. Well, despite the many determined decisions we made, despite the many "cool off" talks, we still fell for one another on some level. The wedding was called off, whether or not our connection had something to do with it, I don't know. We met up, things didn't work out like we hoped and now we are both single. Ironically the woman he was going to marry has now met someone in the very same game and moved to a different country to be with him. Funny world.

And what if a professional actor creates a character and role plays, top notch? Are they able to successfully hide their own personality completely? Personally I feel the answer is incredibly simple: No. Whether or not the character they make is evil or pure has little relevance, it's the choices the puppeteer makes whilst controlling that character which reveals volumes. For each and every action, each and every word uttered by that character is in fact being generated by the player, a player who needs to make choices in how they want to execute that characters life. There is a difference between a murderous character who coldly slaughters his victim and pillages their body, than one who tucks a rose under the deceased hand and a small scroll containing a poem of penance.

John Bilodeau: "so the relationships under discussion form independently of non-verbal communication? The toon is the stand-in for our body language, our chemistry,etc..."
* Well I suppose it depends on whether you consider deep and intense textual conversation as "verbal" or not. The toon can portray body language as well. For instance my character may feel lost and forlorn, standing upon a cliff. In the distance I can see her love watching her, not daring to step closer, just watching her silently for many minutes. I think even something as simple as that says a million words, even though they are "just toons".

Andy: "being able to read thousands of very subtle signs that tell us things about people in RL."
* Subtle signs can very much be read also in online interaction. This may of course vary greatly depending on whether you have a gift for reading the tone in the choice of words, the pauses etc, but I'd dare say I am a better reader of character in game than out although I am also excellent out of game. And then there are those who can't read the signs - but they are probably the same ones who can't read body language no matter how blatant. Has anyone ever gabbed on and on although you were obviously wanting to end the conversation? We've all had it happen to us. So there you go.

Andy: "And anyone with half an ounce of sense can pull the smartest move in the world for when you're trying to impress someone -- shut up -- and come across as mysterious, smart and suave."
* Perhaps at first, but it doesn't take too much time together until the real persona is revealed. It's the little things. So say you're this cool suave paladin I've met and you say all the right things, you are not -let me repeat this- not going to sacrifice your time and effort just for the purpose of role playing a "nice guy". If you are by nature, a selfish meanie, you simply have no motivation in doing that. Unless of course your aim is to see how well you can fool other people, but that does shine through sooner or later.

Andy: "First, RL dating is dangerous from an ego-conflict and vulnerability standpoint"
* Of course, and yes it's terribly scary for both parties involved, but the difference here is that it's pre-meditaded and consensual. When girl and boy start playing the dating game, they both know what they are getting into, they know the risks and have gone through them a million times in their heads. They are already buffed up for all the things that could go wrong. But the dangers I am talking about in game are sudden jolts which come as a complete surprise and demand split second decisions, as Heather was explaining earlier. To be honest I don't think these two genre of dangers are even really under the same label.

Andy: "And never forced to deal with conflict? Come on? Who has she dated?"
* Don't you think in game couples wonder the same things? Again the question of who she has dated has little to do with spontaneous conflictual situations.

Andy: "the erstwhile couple is actually never put into any daner, attacked or in conflict either."

* Physically, yes. But emotionally a person can go through very similar states as if it were the real thing. When my character has been chased down by murderers in Ultima Online, believe-you-me - my heart has pounded like mad, my hands have shook, my cheeks have been bright red. When my character sees the character she is in love with, and if there is some RL love going on as well, by golly, my stomach -will- in fact go into knots and my pulse will start to race. It was never the physical danger I was referring to, it was the emotional reaction. And although some people don't react strongly to MMORPGs situations, I happen to be one of those people who does.

Andy: "Have I made great friends online? Sure. In games? Yes. Have I evaluated intelligence, sense of humor, robustness of ego? Yup. Do I have really great friends that I've never met, that I have only known in IM, email and chat rooms? You bet."
* And do you consider any of those friends to be more "real" friends to you than some of your face to face friends?

Andy: "I have also known people through virtual/electronic venues that, when I have met them, turned out to be diametrically different than the personnnae they more-or-less created online."
* As have I met people IRL who turned out to be diametrically different after a few weeks of getting to know them.

[Andy Havens]

12.

Back @Andrea: Do I consider some of my online friends to be more "real" than some of my RL friends? Well... depends on what you mean. I've had "work friends" whose friendship dried up as soon as a job changed; friends-of-opportunity, I've come to think of them as. So, of course, RL does not guarantee any kind of fidelity or closeness. And I'm not saying that you can't develop closeness through text. I'm just saying that anything you *can* develop through text and VW/MMO interaction can be developed in RL, and lots of things that can be developed in real life can *not* come about through virtual contact. I honestly don't believe that there are, currently, any kinds of virtual behaviors available that substitute for real life interaction, if what you are aiming to establish -- eventually -- is a real life relationship.

Can you meet someone in a game and find their texting and play-style interesting? humorous? intelligent? charming? Sure. Can that lead, as can any kind of initial social interaction, to a good date? Why not? I got no beef with that. But to suggest, as you do, that playing in an MMO is "one of the best ways to get to know someone," is, I think, just not so.

First of all, your relationship is mitigated by whatever the rule-set of the game is. Whatever my character/avatar/toon can do in the game -- and however my "date" will interpret that -- will only be those things allowed by the game. That narrows the field of what is possible on a date pretty amazingly. I'm not talking about virtual sex; I'm talking about eye-contact or not; walking in the same direction in step; tone of voice; voice at all; use of personal space; coordination beyond game mechanics; social skills other than those mediated by game mechanics; hygiene; all kinds of stuff that you lump together under, "...careful, picky and paranoid when it comes to romance."

Second, a game is fiction. Much of what occurs there is intended to be "put on." There are liars and deceivers in RL, 'tis true. We have all met folks IRL who are great, huge bastards after you get to know them. But it's not the norm, and we aren't all actors in a play. And when you meet someone, your intent is, usually, to be *you.* On purpose. To "get to know somebody." Whereas in a game, in a fictional setting, the purpose is to be someone else, doing something else, living somewhere else. So... no matter how wonderful someone is at being a Paladin... well, how well that translates into their being able to sit down and have a conversation with you, your kid or your mom... I don't know. I do know that I can pretty well judge from an actual conversation whether or not you can have an actual conversation with me.

Third (last, I promise) and most important... online games and VW's have a lot more to do with self-projection than does the real world. We are, as has been said very often, "alone together." Without all of the RL cues -- and not just the ones from "the significant other" -- it is very easy to see/hear/read what we want in the text that we read. It is easy to feel as if the adventure is more important, more amazing, more eventful... because we want it to be like that... and it's happening much more in our head than in anywhere else. It is inside the magic circle, the theater, the dream world. We are the star. And when another person helps fulfil that for us, they become more significant than they otherwise would, because they are in our head. They are, in a sense, our "dream date." We make them into what we want, because we don't have the other modifiers there that say, "Wait. This is not a romantic fairytale."

Limited input. Fictional and fantastic environments. Self-projection. All these come into play when you meet someone in-game. Again... I ain't sayin' you can't meet nice people in game and then "step outside for a drink." I just disagree with your thesis that a date in Azeroth is better than one in Central Park.

[Andrea Fryer]

13.

Andy: You have some very valid points there, and if I were a young lassie, just stepping into adulthood, with barely any life experience behind me, I'd be wise to think long and hard about the things you said. Even to "wake up and smell the coffee".

But consider this: I'm 37, have had two very meaningful long relationships (a child from each), in addition to many RL "let's get to know each other and see where it goes" cases in between. And yet here I am, having experienced the best and the worst of both worlds (online and offline) and I am claiming that the gaming environment wins? There has got to be a reason for that.

Now, of course I cannot claim it's best for -everyone-, so in that sense my original post is terribly arrogant - but sometimes you need to go full force to get a point through in a strong way.

Actually, the post originates from the "women in game development" mailing list, where one lady wondered out loud if game romances can lead to anything meaningful, and this post was my answer to her. Point being, the original motivation for the post is not to stride forth making grand claims about the way things are, but instead to answer "Why sure!" to someone in a mailing list, with much vigor and excitement of course. ;-)

And to get really objective here, I can't even claim it's the best way for people who share the same priorities (mind over body) as me and that fella Bruce up there. Because, to actually learn about someone successfully in a game, it requires that both you -and- your partner be adept in textual communication and expression. Not all of us are.

But for a person like myself who
a) Puts the persons mind and persoanility at highest priority
b) Can communicate with ease
c) Can express oneself richly
d) Finds it terribly exhausting to go through repeated "Let's get to know each other and we'll see" scenarios in the RL dating scene

For such people? I do in fact think gaming is superior.

[Andy Havens]

14.

Andrea: Driving home from work tonight, I thought of a caveat to my point -- and that is that for some folks (well described by you above), gaming can be a superior *initial* or *alternative* gaming experience, in a very few cases. Gee... look at all those micro-caveats.

What you're basically saying is that for people who love and are comfortable in games, it's easier to get along in games. Which is almost a tautology. I might say, also, that dating "in church settings" is better for people who:

a) put spirituality at highest priority
b) can pray with another person with ease
c) can discuss theology richly
d) Find it terribly exhausting to go through repeated "Let's get to know each other carnally and we'll see" scenarios in the secular dating scene.

I'm not in any way being sarcastic here. People who play sports or work-out at a gym all the time would probably be more comfortable meeting and dating folks in circumstances related to those activities. Sure. I assume you're not suggesting that someone who one-finger-types 8wpm and has no interest in video games would have a "better" dating experience through an MMO?

If you're saying that's it's better than an experience that's not as good... again; a tautology. Is it *possible* that it's better? Sometimes? Of course. You've given yourself as an example of someone for whom that is the case.

And I understand (as a writer) that hyperbole is a fun and interesting way to take the reader down the path to an idea that's a bit outre. But I'm not responding at the original posting site; I'm responding here at TN. And I'm responding to what is not clearly couched as direct hyperbole or overstated, metaphoric load. You pretty clearly state that MMO dating is "one of the best ways," and go on to say that it's better than meeting someone "at a bar, gym, etc."

Well... is it better for a few MMO players who weren't going to bars and gyms anyways? And is it "dating" or "meeting" that we're talking about? Because "meeting" someone is very different than dating. I would 100% agree with you that meeting people in MMOs and online in general is fantastic. And then you can move into RL to actually date. But in the MMO, you're still mostly dancing with yourself. And the fiction. And the engine.

I'm 40 myself. Only one long relationship, and a kid from that. We dated long-distance in high-school and college. And I wouldn't trade the letters and phone calls for anything. They are a very meaningful part of what made our whole relationship very deep and real.

But they were an adjunct to the RL. Chapter 1. Not the dating, but the prelude to it. Not the meal, the menu.

[Nick Yee]

15.

I have a recent post at Daedalus on this where I tried to make sense of narratives that players had submitted, players who had physically dated someone they had first met in an MMO:

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001534.php

The one emergent theme that surprised me the most was the large percentage of people who felt that they wouldn't have dated the person they are currently romantically involved with had they first met them in real life. And many of them cited superficial reasons why (e.g., too nice, too old, not my type). It was getting to know each other in the game context, from the inside out, that made the "impossible" relationship work. In these cases, it made the relationship less superficial - in fact, possible.

The other thing is that MMO players don't play primarily to look for a date. Many players develop strong friendships via working together (and dying together) that then become romantic later down the road. Many of these couples do not get to know each other under the pretense of "dating". They get to know each other and then decide to date.

Of course I'm not arguing (and I don't think Andrea is arguing) that dating in MMOs is always better than dating in RL, but I would argue that MMO relationships aren't inherently more superficial than RL relationships. And while Andy's points are valid, many of the narratives in the Daedalus article push back against those arguments.

The MMO relationship isn't something that works for everyone (and most players aren't looking for them in the first place), but for those that it happens to, the evidence does suggest that they can be lasting and as rewarding as relationships that began F2F.

[Nick Yee]

16.

To avoid confusion, by this:

"I would argue that MMO relationships aren't inherently more superficial than RL relationships."

I meant this:

"I would argue that relationships that began in MMOs aren't inherently more superficial than relationships that began F2F."

[Pietoro]

17.

I suppose your value on someone who takes aggro from a monster and dies for you, would depend on how sadistic the leveling/death penalty is in your preferred game.

I don't play the sorts of games where its blood sweat and tears to level and a kick in the teeth when you die, so I guess I can't relate to people being moved by such a thing.

[Mr Butterscotch]

18.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. The 'meeting of potential romantic partners' is massively flawed in the online arena of games, if just because you have no idea if you're talking to someone 1 mile away, or 1,000. Lets be realistic as well, it doesn't matter how great someone 'chats' or sounds over VOIP, for any relationship to work there needs to be physical attraction as well. It's not shallow, it's a truism.

To further this, MMORPGs by their nature have you playing a role. What's to say that this person acts anything like this in real life? I know of a person who had severe 'problems' in real life - but you couldn't tell from his gaming when he was both friendly and an excellent player. I just don't buy into the idea that games are a viable option for meeting of the romantic minds...

[John Bilodeau]

19.

Andrea said:"The toon can portray body language as well. For instance my character may feel lost and forlorn, standing upon a cliff. In the distance I can see her love watching her, not daring to step closer, just watching her silently for many minutes. I think even something as simple as that says a million words, even though they are 'just toons'."

&

Andrea said: "Subtle signs can very much be read also in online interaction. This may of course vary greatly depending on whether you have a gift for reading the tone in the choice of words, the pauses etc, but I'd dare say I am a better reader of character in game than out although I am also excellent out of game."

I’m really suspicious about these claims. When I think about the amount of information encoded in our nonverbal and unconscious communication, it just feels like a lot of blanks the desirer needs to fill in. You seem to trust your skills in this area more than I would in a similar situation.

I can see that there is information in the posing of the toons, in the choice of words, and inflection and tone accessed through voice-chat. However, I’m not sure that all this information compares to face-to-face interaction with someone.

I have only seen a few examples of online dating & marriage, and from what I have seen the players do try to use their toons to mimic human bodies: emoting a hug while the two figure stand motionless face each other, overlapping their arms to appear to be holding hands, sitting in each other’s laps, etc…

You can see the people reaching out for contact, but it looks frustrating to me. I can’t think of a way to compare the validity of their feelings, and I can’t honestly suggest that their isn’t delusion and deception in face-to-face interactions… but the mimicry of physical interaction suggests to me that the in-game situation is not ideal.

[Mr Butterscotch]

20.

Good point well made John, however I don't think the situation will ever be ideal. Lets face it, virtual hugs are exactly that...

[Caleb]

21.

These days there are a lot more women in online gaming, and I agree with the lady who said that VOIP programs help you to develop that daily interaction. I've known quite a few people who have met via gaming, and ended up in a relationship.

In the old days of gaming (before voice programs) it was really impossible to tell the true gender of someone. But now days most player groups worth their salt require voice chat as part of their membership requirements, and a 50 slot voice server is dirt cheap if at least 5 other people contribute 5 bucks a month.

The old sterotype that MMO gamers are fat, ugly,and live in someone's basement are mostly untrue these days. There are people of all ages and types that play MMO's now, and probably a lot of single ones who wouldn't mind some sort of dating service built into a game's community support.

At least in MMO's there's a good chance that the people you meet like a lot of the same things that you do.

[Victor Pineiro]

22.

We've been finding and interviewing couples who met on MMOs for our documentary, and have seen a number of very healthy relationships that began in virtual worlds. Their courting stories, though they involve more dragons and orc-slaying, are pretty similar to any RL courtship- except the pressure is off, there are plenty of situations where your 'true character' shows through, and looks don't play a factor (well, RL looks don't- I contend that your avatar's look plays a huge role). Nick Yee's great article on the inside-out nature of MMO relationship sums it up pretty well. Most interviewees comment on the 'lack of superficiality' and the innocence in the getting-to-know-you phase, since most aren't looking for love while raiding. And more than one have brought up scenarios like Andrea's when explaining how they fell for their beau. Great post.

[Michael Chui]

23.

The funny thing is... I agree with all this without any kind of experience in graphical MMOs. It works just as well in text environments. Yes, you have greater control over how you present yourself, but you also have the same level of contingencies present in graphical MMOs. The graphical nature makes it easier to apprehend it, but it's not a critical part of it.

[Wolfe]

24.

The understanding of how to read a human through an mmorpg is something that takes several years of playing to develop. Its like life in a twilight zone where everything is strange and wierd, first once you develop a "belonging" within the setting will you be able to understand what Andrea really says.

In my own case I never dated through going to a gym or a pub, altho I spent plenty of hours in both places. I never belonged in them in the way I have beloned within various mmorpg's. I did some dating through paries hosted at places where I did belong tho. Mmorpg's are easy to belong within, all you need is to really enjoy playing them and you will soon enough see them from the inside. Once inside you will find that you (if you are male) stand low in the hierarchy which most female players particpate in and it will demand dedication, charm, wit and honest intentions for you to successful score from within the game.

If you (being male) think you will find a female partner from within WoW you have some shoddy odds, you will come off as pathetic from the start and fail.

I met the mother of my daughter in one of these games several years ago. I never imagined I would but I did imagine I would create a guild which stands out as the best ever for its members and from there I did get to know alot of humans around the globe. Trying to make the best guild ever is a battle that never ends, anyone watching you will either see you fail or learn who you really are and how you deal with a lot of crap over a long time. (Its like raising an army of toddlers.)

[Andy Havens]

25.

Wolfe: I've played thousands of hours of MMOs and VWs and tens more thousands of hours of live RPGs. I've written and directed plays and taught live and web-based classes and have given presentations and done all kinds of public speaking gigs. There is something to what you say; yes, you learn the nuances of different kinds of communications media over time. The same data can be very differently transmitted in a small group vs. a large auditorium vs. over the Web vs. one-on-one. And the tools for doing so need, just like natural language, to be learned. It would be foolish to suggest that someone with 18-30 years of experience in understanding the vocal and physical and live-social aspects of dating communications could pick up how to do something like that in an MMO.

That being said... people find love anywhere. You can find it in a fox-hole. You can find it in an hospital ER. You can find it at work, in church, at funerals, in a cafeteria, in Grand Central Station or, I'm guessing, in the Space Shuttle. But the contention here was that finding it in an MMO is easier or better. "One of the best ways to get to know someone."

I'm not saying it can't happen. There are a million stories of love in the big city. And lots of them start with, "I never thought I'd find my soul-mate in ___________ ." That blank being something a bit, well, odd. Could be "bowling alley." Could be "Azeroth."

Some small number of people who really make something work -- and bravo! for them for doing so -- doesn't mean that "souls easily connect." I don't like it when folks who don't game disrespect the genre(s) without knowing them. And I don't like it when we get overly starry-eyed and hyperbolic ourselves.

Can MMO dating work? Sure. For people who really like to game, a lot, and who are attracted to the form and format and are willing to make concessions and work within them. For the great mass of humanity? There are real issues. One or two dates around Ironforge might be a fun diversion; just like taking someone mini-golfing can be a hoot. But as a steady diet? Not enough protein.

[Wolfe]

26.

Look around you in big city life and find where you have reason to interact with unknown people. Why would you get to know anything other than appearance of someone in the bowling alley?

To alot of todays people its unnatural to approach a random person in the bowling alley. It is however relatively natural for people to not feel creeped out by random talking in WoW.

Or just try to count how many conversations have you had with random people about things that are not related to what you or that person work with? (Like buying tickets or food.) In my urban life this is extremely rare and demands intoxication to break the isolation.

Any hobby should provide these social relationships where the creep-wall is removed, but these hobbies are hard to find and in the real world pre-segregated by various factors. The mmorpg worlds are functional hobbies segregated by different dimensions.

Statistically im sure "intoxication" produce a larger volume of dates than gaming. My perspective of the average quality per date is a lot better from the gaming side. ^^

[Ben Meyer]

27.

What an interesting conversation I've stumbled upon! The potential (or potential disaster) of budding relationships in MMORPGs is more than a conversational topic these days - it's a growing reality in the world of online gaming, which companies are recognizing and beginning to cater to. From /kiss emotes to in-game wedding events, romantic relationships (playful or serious) are becoming far more common.

On a completely separate topic, one thing that's been brought up several times is how much you can know about someone's personality and character from a MMORPG. There have been a few posts talking about the significance of sacrificing oneself for a companion, or rebutting that by pointing out the lack of actual sacrifice involved. Both are very valid points, but I'd like to point out a determining factor in just how significant the sacrifice is: The game itself!

I've played quite a few MMORPG's (Everything from RROnline, Lineage, and DAoC to World of Warcraft and D&D Online, and have a fairly good gauge of what I lose when I step under the sword for another. The world differences of these games color the way that the general populace interacts with and views each other. Andy, for example, mentions Azeroth from time to time. He's from the reigning MMO champion, World of Warcraft.

Playing endgame in WoW, a death for me means 15-20 minutes of solo hunting for gold to repair my armor and weapons. If we find an epic weapon in a chest, it can probably be bought at the auction house if we save up enough. If we get an epic weapon from a boss, there are no holds barred since my romantic interest and I are competing against 38 other people, 10 of whom probably need the same item. When we enter an instance, we *expect* to die. We plan not to, but we know it's a very real possibility, and will likely happen more than once.

In Final Fantasy XI, sacrificing myself means 1-2 hours of active playtime to regain the experience I lost (In FFXI or EQ, you can lose experience and even levels from dying). Add to that between 2-4 hours looking for a group (I'm in a pretty small linkshell), and an added risk of losing even more experience if that group doesn't work well together and wipes repeatedly(I've lost 2 levels in a single evening before - that's 20 deaths, and about a week's worth of work to recover).

That's a significant difference. In Warcraft, if you're deep in an instance, chances are you stand and fight if something goes bad. You probably won't make it out alive, and staying put makes it easier for a healer to raise you (he doesn't have to run around searching for your corpse). Sure, you're out 2 gold from the death if you're well geared (epics). So, you go spend 10 minutes grinding and you're covered. No big deal. In Final Fantasy, falling back to regroup is a viable option, and if a run order is called, you run. If a friend gets stuck, I'm always there to take the fall. If it's someone that I just met that's not being an *outstanding* party member, that's life. Or the end of it.

While we shape our characters' destinies in game, the game also shapes the way we think about events like character death. Warcraft is very forgiving about death, and it's really not a huge issue. At most it's an inconvenience. In final fantasy, though, my character's life is much more precious to me, and I'm less likely to risk it to help a stranger. Conversely, the lives of my friends or Linkshell members are also much more precious, and I'm more likely to charge in and lay my life down without regret to save theirs.

While sacrifice for another is noble in any form, the depth of meaning in such an act, and the insight into one's character given by the act, is determined by the framework of the game.

Rather ironic, no?

[Dr. Cat]

28.

When we first made Furcadia, I knew that sooner or later some couple who met there would get married. After all, it'd been happening on every chat system & text based online game from the early days - and even telegraph operators from the 1800s had gotten married after chatting in morse code.

What surprised me was how many we got, even in the early years when we were quite small. We had deliberately made a game without combat, monsters, and levelling so we wouldn't end up with just hardcore gamers, and would attract a broader range of people. I think the greater focus on socializing that encourages, as well as the user-created content basis (which turns out to generate a lot of collaboration, etc.) may make it an inherently more fertile ground for romance. (Art style might contribute some too?)

I'm curious whether other social and/or user created content focused games have also observed a higher than expected level of real-life relationships, dating, and marriage resulting than we see on the EQ/WoW/UO etc. type of games. Anybody have any idea?

I also didn't expect to meet my own sweetie on Furcadia, but we've been together for over six years now. So I can personally attest that it's quite possible for these things to work out. I did realize back in the early 90s one key advantage of meeting people online. Whatever combination of shared common interests, personality types, etc. you're looking for in a person (be it friend, lover, or spouse you're seeking), the city you live in is only going to have a certain number of people that closely match that. Even if you can find them all and get to know them, the many millions of people on the internet will include more people that share your tastes, interests, etc. than you could ever find in your home town. You can also usually find people with specific interests much faster and more efficiently with computers, search functions, groups organized for certain hobbies, etc. than you can by wandering around your home town, and when you find a group you want to look into, you can check it out without even a 2 minute car trip to get there. (And can leave immediately with no social stigma.) It's just more efficient. I'm a big fan of an animal I first saw in the Los Angeles zoo, the white-nosed coati (also known sometimes as coatimundi). In the 90s, I met 4 other coati fanciers on the internet and we'd chat about them. What are the odds of meeting 4 people who like coatis in the real world?

[e-baka]

29.

http://elfechardeladulto.org/ - Aquí está el artículo en la lengua española iguales temáticos. Gran trabajo!