Project Entropia

By now, everyone has probably read the gushing news stories: Project Entropia’s developer, MindArk, has introduced a bank card that allows cardholders to treat their “virtual currency” from Project Entropia “just like real money” and withdraw it from a cash machine.  The BBC, the New York Times, ABC News, and any number of other mainstream media sources have run stories on this.  They boggle at this miracle and explain how,

[t]he new cash card blurs the boundary between the virtual and physical world even further.

This is the kind of story that we love here at Terra Nova, since it involves nifty issues about virtual worlds, the social fiction of money, and all sorts of other interesting questions.  But I don’t love this story.  I think it’s basically bogus.  In fact it’s worse than that.  This story has finally convinced me that MindArk is fantastic at generating public relations stories that credulous media sources pick up without questioning, but which, if investigated for even a moment, make you shake your head in wonder.

MindArk had bumped around in the news a little before hitting the big time in 2004.  Famously, it was raided and sued by the Business Software Alliance for allegedly running 600 illegal copies of software, a suit that was later dropped.  At the time of the raid, MindArk demonstrated that it was good at making lemonade when handed lemons: the Wired story quotes a MindArk statement that suggests the bust was actually motivated by Microsoft’s fear of Project Entropia as a competitor to its MMOG offering, Asheron’s Call. The statement went on to indicate the significance of Project Entropia, even way back in 2002.  "When MindArk a few weeks ago proclaimed Project Entropia 3-D universe open for anyone to enter from their computer, the Project Entropia site immediately became the world's largest site on the Internet, even beating Yahoo, MSN, etc."  Wow, who knew?

The first really big Entropia story to hit the headlines was the sale of Treasure Island, for US$26,500. I bought the story at face value, I’m sorry to say.  But it seemed within the realm of the possible and there were few warning signals.  Alarms should have started going off with the October 2005 reports of the US$100,000 sale of the Project Entropia Space Station, to Jon “Neverdie” Jacobs.  Jacobs, various news sources reported, was an independent filmmaker and DJ who intended to run the station as a virtual nightclub and resort.  What no news services (to the best of my knowledge) ever reported is that Jon “Neverdie” Jacobs worked for MindArk as their “Project Entropia, US Spokesman.”  He was a speaker at the Digital Hollywood conference in 2004 on internet gaming, and his (presumably self-written) biography says that his responsibilities for Project Entropia include “business development, marketing and content acquisition”.  (Scroll down to the sixth entry).   So it turns out that the “sale” of Space Station “Neverdie” was from MindArk to, um, one of their marketing and PR people.  Wow, no wonder why the news sources bought that one at face value.  No reasonable reporter could have doubts about the validity of that transaction.

The latest news is that you can now get a “Project Entropia Card” and can withdraw your virtual money—Project Entropia Dollars, or PEDs—at your local cash machine in real world currency.  All the news sources are going gaga over this.  But just give it a moment’s thought and there is nothing there.  First off, it’s genuinely no big deal to have a “Project Entropia Card”, since almost any bank is happy to give you a card with your brand on it.  At various times I’ve had credit cards with brands like “United Airlines”, “University of Pennsylvania” and “National Geographic” on them, even though I’m confident that none of those institutions is actually a bank.  This is called “co-branding” and it’s extremely common.  Then there is the amazing fact that you can use your “virtual” currency in the real world.  But think about what this actually means: you pay US dollars (or whatever currency you use) to get PEDs at the rate of 10 PEDs per US dollar; these PEDs sit in an account that Mindark controls; and if you get a Project Entropia card you can extract the PEDs from your account as dollars.  Which is another way of saying that you put dollars in, and you can get dollars out.  Hey, guess what?  This new frontier in virtual currency is...wait for it...a co-branded debit card.  It’s remarkable that all the journalists at the NYT, BBC and ABC News couldn’t put that one together.  It doesn’t even take a phone call. 

Now, MindArk may well be a scrupulously honest organization.  I’m not suggesting here that it is acting fraudulently.  But its PR stunts are designed to make a big impression—“Virtual Space Station sells for $100,000!!”, “Virtual currency crosses over into Real World!!”—and on analysis, they are nothing but bullshit. 

The mass media needs to start applying a bit of common sense to stories about virtual asset sales.  I think it’s just that the whole idea of virtual property is so new and looks so weird, that media sources will buy any story, no matter how flimsy.  It turns out that the flimsiest stories of all are about Project Entropia.

Comments

[Steven Davis]

1.

Excellent article! I hope this leads to a bit more skepticism across the board... and not just about Project Entropia.

Did other people bid on the Space Station or Island? Were legitimate other (lower) offers ignored in order to goose the prices?

This may be more than aggressive PR - it merits real investigation. After all, there were articles claiming the revenues that the Island and Space Station would/could earn. This may have encouraged other people to sign up and participate in the game.

The online game industry needs to develop independent metrics to keep itself honest. If this Project Entropia case turns into a real scandal, it could impact everybody in the industry. To an outsider, Project Entropia is just as legitimate as World of Warcraft, Eve Online, Second Life, Everquest, and Lineage.

Eliot Spitzer, Hillary Clinton, and various state attornies general could be here to help real soon!

[Wallace]

2.

Sounds like a pyramid scheme. The people buying in at the beginning need more people buying in to keep the demand up...

[John Arras]

3.

Every time I hear about them I keep thinking... "You mean they haven't gone bankrupt from scammers or been thrown in jail because the authorities finally figured out what they were doing? Wow." Must be nice to be an unregulated bank.

[Spur]

4.

I think I will opt for the VISA with a picture of Captain Picard on it instead.

[John Arras]

5.

Then again, maybe the only money they care about are the investor->MindArk transfers so maybe they don't worry about scammers or international banking laws.

[Fitzgerald]

6.

Like you speculate yourself, all it takes is a phone-call to MindArk to get confirmation, instead of raving here. I believed there was more sense than idle speculation and envy present on this well-informed site? The Jon Jacobs connection to MindArk has been explained over and over (MindArk have ambassadors where they don't have presence, as they are in Sweden, like, far away from anywhere. Jon Jacobs, avid Entropia player, was selected for the part of representing MindArk in the US. In order to get anywhere in the US you must have a cool sounding title, else you get treated like dirt. Jon Jacobs have most certainly supplied ideas to MindArk, as have many, many others.

I say shame on you for badmouthing a pioneering concept like this. Calling it a pyramid scheme just shows the ignorance (as a pyramid scheme builds on the notion that each member must recruit sub-members in order to get ahead - something that isn't even applicable in Entropia.

I have been playing Entropia for several years, and have seen many uninformed statements from people that have no clue, as to the vision, the plans, the concept or the idea of Entropia. I agree that some of the older brash statements do sound a bit whack but that was then, the guys running PR and Marketing back then aren't even with MindArk today (also easy to check).

The main thing is that this is a great step forward for Entropia Universe as it will allow people to fast and easy get hands on their virtual funds using normal technology. It is a great way to show trust as well, as MindArk will expose themselves to a higher level of withdrawals, most certainly - but guess what, they do it anyway! Probably because the believe in their product and in their customers and in the future. Entropia is not your run-of-the-mill MMOG, it is something else. Hell, they have survived this long, then they must be doing something right.

And I wonder: How many of you that give sure-sounding comments about the system have actually played it? Have seriously examined it? Got the idea at all? Just askin'.

[John Arras]

7.

In response to Fitzgerald:

And I wonder: How many of you that give sure-sounding comments about the system have actually played it? Have seriously examined it? Got the idea at all? Just askin'.

It's a bank. They should follow the rules and treaties that govern banks doing business internationally. I don't know if they are following those rules, but I have never seen anything on their site saying that they follow these rules and treaties. If you can point the location in the website where they say they follow the banking laws that apply to international banks, then I will take back what I said. If not, then I stand by saying it's an unregulated bank.

[Eric]

8.

Another missed story is the ongoing refusal of developers to recognize the commodification of virtual possessions. The Project Entropia conditions of use do not really set up an entrepreneurial virtual world. If they were serious about encouraging business, they would adopt measures that protect the interests of investors--in this case, virtual property.

Instead, their agreement dictates thus:
"As part of your interactions with the System, you may acquire, create, design, or modify Virtual items, but you agree that you will not gain any ownership interest whatsoever in any Virtual item, and you hereby assign to MindArk all of your rights, title and interest in any such Virtual item."

[John Arras]

9.

Coming back to this again...I think PE is like Paypal and not a game (or the game part is irrelevant to my concerns). That's the issue here...I don't use Paypal because it doesn't follow all of the same rules that banks do, so you're basically working on trust with them, even though it acts just like a bank in that people put money into their accounts and transfer them and then take money out.

[Scott Jennings]

10.

I don't have a cool sounding title. Clearly this is the cause of my life's woes!

More seriously, has anyone ever actually found someone who pulled money out of PE? I remember trying to find a posting from someone who had and came up empty. Most of the game systems depend on pumping money into the system, not retrieving it back out.

Second Life's direction towards convertible currency and in-game property rights are a bit more verifiable, and frankly, a lot less skeevy.

[bllius]

11.

So, find some people who play PE. All these articles cite at least 250 000 subscribers. Someone, somewhere, must be a player and read TN.

[thoreau]

12.

Some of the facts are incorrect. Neverdie was not a MA employee. He appeared as a representative of the game in the U.S. Since MA is in Sweden and employees a relatively 'small' crew (less than 40 I think) they obviously can't be everywhere at once.

As far as Neverdie's responsibilities I believe he was speaking as to his career path within that virtual world. Obviously, since he is someone that has been trying to brand his own name, Neverdie, the line, 'business development, marketing and content acquisition' seems in line with that end.

The auction that was won by Neverdie was open to the Entropia community at large and at least 3 others were in contact with Mindark when Neverdie transferred the funds to secure the purchase to end the auction by paying the 'buyout' price.

I could go on to say how wrong the OP is but why bother? You obviously didnt' even bother to download and experience the game. You did a little internet research and maybe didn't even venture away fromt the tn archives and you composed a story with a very negative point of view.

It's a free download. I suggest your readers engage in better journalism that you and experience it for themselves.

[thoreau]

13.

@Scott

I have withdrawn money from PE (now called Entropia Universe.) The withdrawl process took at that time about 12 weeks. The length of the process is to check each account for questionable activity.

Why do you think SL's system is more verifiable? You can buy Linden dollars from 3rd party sites. Additionally, Linden Labs gives you free L$ for simply signing into the game. How can a game economy exist that simply gives away money unless that money has relatively no value.

[thoreau]

14.

@John Arras

Is an internet casino an unregulated bank?

[John Arras]

15.

@thoreau

Is an internet casino an unregulated bank?

Yes, if you can deposit money with the expectation of being able to withdraw it, then yes I think it's a bank.

I know the specific rules are different in terms of what the casino or bank actually has to do to ensure that the deposits or chips can be paid back, but the point is that laws exist independent of the promises of the bank or casino itself that help to make sure that the business will have money available and be willing to give it back to people who come in and want their money back for their deposits or chips.

[Fitzgerald]

16.

Once again this fine site is smothered with speculation and wild guesses. At the most visited forum for Entropia (www.entropiaforum.com) you can read thread after thread from people who withdraw successfully. The criticism has always been the time frame of the process, which Mindark now has taken cared of with the ATM card.

Don't forget that Entropia and Mindark are pioneers in this field. SL isn't in the same ballpark (no critique of it, it is just different), as Entropia is a fully immersive experience with entertainment, gameplay, business and social interaction, ie. a parallel universe. Last night it was featured on TV (Swedish I guess, link available in the forum mentioned above) and I find their vision amazing.

Also, I have both made deposits to and withdrawals from Entropia, so any talk about bad security and/or skeevy business is just rubbish. Like thoreau said, the software is free. Just download it yourself and try it out before flaming away.

Of course, I am biased in this, but my bias is based on experience, not hearsay.

[Endie]

17.

Scott,

Given a variety of factors, I imagine that the posting you were looking for may be this one from F13?:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=6779.msg182246#msg182246

"Good luck to anyone trying to withrdraw [sic].

A friend and I put in a miniscule amount of money once (we played it long enough that it was cheaper than any current MMO), got lucky on a few loots, and still haven't seen our cash a year and a half later. Of course the balance is zero on the character and customer service never responds."

I hear klaxons.

That said, I am partially in agreement with one element of Fanboi Fitz's argument. SL is not a great advert for real<->virtual money transfers either, given that their world's macro-level money supply model is inherently inflationary: they pump money into the game without requiring the addition of value or the provision of convertible currency (dollars) to back the new currency issues. If I sign in on my free account I get free money, which I can nominally convert to real money.

Endie

[Fitzgerald]

18.

Endie,

The people who was denied money almost every time are found out being either a) ingame scammers (thus violating the EULA) or b) had used stolen credit cards. Their frustration over not getting hold of their illegal money usually constitutes badmouthing on the Internet.

Please not that I don't consider Mindark to be nicest, most professional, most customer-minded or the coolest company out there. They make screw-ups like the rest of us. But I get ticked off when non-substantiated rumors starts flying, especially on a site I hold in high esteem like this one.

The problem is that Entropia Universe is a novel thing, but is also looked upon as a deviant of sorts, something strange, something "I don't understand", therefore I assume the worst (normal human behaviour). I only hope people form their own opinion based on experience rather than third (or forth, or fifth) party statements.

Well, off to sleep. :-)

[Tom]

19.

@John Arras

Describing a bank as a place where people put money into an account and get money out is a bit simplistic and ignores details like interest, money loans, so on and so forth. And saying you don't use Paypal because it doesn't follow the same rules as banks do ignore the fact that it is not strictly speaking a bank but that it is an electronic money institution which is "authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority" (in the UK at any rate).

Mindark is a business and is subject to business law like any other. I have an account with a telephone provider. I pay regular amounts into that account to cover any past or future bills that I incur. If I change company and my account has more money in it than I owe then they are obliged, by law, to return that money to me (albeit because that's what my agreed contract with them stipulates). But just because I have an account with them into which I put money and expect to be able to "withdraw" any money from, does not make it a bank.

When you sign up for PE, you have to agree to their Terms and Conditions. Section 8 details the governing law regarding accounts and transactions:

"This Agreement is to be governed by, construed and enforced according to the laws of Sweden.9. Accounts and Fund Transfers
MindArk acknowledges the responsibility to maintain records of all transactions in accordance with corresponding Swedish Legislation. Account deficits in any situation apart from those described herein are the responsibility of the Participant. MindArk accepts no responsibility for funds misplaced or misused in any incidence, regardless of reason."

So no, it's not a bank. But it doesn't offer any banking functions. They won't lend you money, they won't pay you interest, they won't give you a cheque book* or an overdraft. It's a business providing a service that you pay for.

*I don't know the details of this card - a co-branded card is obviously going to take money from your bank and not from them so that works and still stops them being a bank.

[thoreau]

20.

@Scott

another reason for withdraws to be denied is incorrect information being used when creating a new account.

it seems normal to use a bogus name and birthday when signing up for a free MMO. However, when you withdraw from Entropia the name on your bank account must match the name on your account. So, if you used Cosmo Kramer as you 'real' name you might have a problem with a withdrawl.

[thoreau]

21.

@Scott

another reason for a withdrawl being denied is incorrect information being used when creating a new account.

it seems normal to use a bogus name and birthday when signing up for a free MMO. However, when you withdraw from Entropia the name on your bank account must match the name on your account. So, if you used Cosmo Kramer as you 'real' name you might have a problem with a withdrawl.

[alan]

22.

Nice article, but please leave out the "...wait for it..." next time. That is becoming the most trendy overused phrase ever.

[Steven Davis]

23.

As MMOx / Virtual Worlds mature, the industry needs to develop a code of conduct for proper corporate behavior and accountability.

Everyone, not just Project Entropia, should provide independently accountable reports on number of players/subscribers, concurrent and peak users, and, for those that support transactions (whether real or virtual) reporting on that as well... and whatver other metrics are appropriate.

This will certainly help grow the industry as outside investors will be able to judge the size of the market and where opportunities may lie.

It will also help the integrity of the industry. Anomolous behavior will stand out if there are clear metrics. Third party services will also be easier to track and have a more difficult time profiteering from ignorance of the operation of these game systems.

Whatever Mr. Jacobs relationship is with MindArk, there seems to be the appearance of impropriety. This will hurt everyone. The standard rules for games and contests in the promotions industry is that "employees, families, and friends" cannot participate - there is a reason for this!

The industry is rapidly leaving the "pioneer" stage. MMO / Virtual worlds games are businesses and part of an exciting and rapidly growing new market. It is time to begin building standard ethical, as well as technical and operational, best practices.

[Joshua_Fairfield]

24.

There are two issues: the first is whether MindArk is a reputable company. I'm inclined to say Dan knows his stuff, so I'll defer to him.

The second is whether this concept, if advanced by a reputable company, is a good idea. I think it is. Imagine if you bought a house in a "gated community." Then you found out that you could never, ever, sell it again.

Your investment would be "locked in." This would give the local homeowners' association far more control over you than could possibly be sane: any encroachment would be possible up to the value of the property.

We recognize the importance of "voting with your feet" or "voting with your wallet" all the time. Lock-ins are bad. Providing a way to liquidate virtual holdings to real cash is a great way to encourage useful competition between creators of virtual worlds -- because if the players don't like the game, they don't have to give EVERYTHING up to leave. They can liquidate their holdings, and vote with their feet.

[Dan Hunter]

25.

Joshua> There are two issues: the first is whether MindArk is a reputable company. I'm inclined to say Dan knows his stuff, so I'll defer to him.

I didn't say that they're disreputable, or fraudulent, or any of the things that commentators are suggesting that this story is about. I have no idea whether people are able to get their money out of PE/EntropiaUniverse: people can read the forums themselves and come to their own conclusions.

I did say that the big name events that garner them press are exceedingly hard to verify, have weird angles to them, or are just obviously crap. The posting is not really about PE so much as about the inability of the press (myself included in the past) to do some thinking about these sorts of PR stunts and question them more closely. In one sense, I don't care in the slightest about MindArk, or PE. I just think it's a bad idea if we don't start questioning what is going on here, and if we continue to be boosters for all the various stories about virtual property without wondering whether there is anything there.

Alan> Nice article, but please leave out the "...wait for it..." next time. That is becoming the most trendy overused phrase ever.

Good point. Will do.

[Jessica Mulligan]

26.

There is a saying in science: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Considering the wild and inaccurate statements MA has made in the past - loved that bit about supposedly beating out Yahoo and MSN to become the most visited site on the Internet - and that Neverdie described himself as working in marketing and biz dev on behalf of MA, not himself, I consider the soi disant 'sale' to be an extraordinary claim that is not only unproven, but unbelievable.

[John Arras]

27.

@Tom:

If they want to talk about such large ($100,000) transactions and hand out ATM cards, they need to be as responsible as banks. The main point of banking laws is to make sure that if you deposit money in the bank, you will be able to get it out eventually. That's why there are rules on loans and interest and reserves and all that. The main activity of a bank is to take money from depositors and loan it out to make a profit in such a way that they are responsible enough that the customers can get their money back. If an entity expects people to make many transactions that are large enough that they can have their own debit cards then I think they're a bank.

And the only reason PayPal isn't a bank yet is that they haven't screwed over enough people or someone powerful enough to get a law passed to force them to become a bank. It will come. This is why everything in life gets regulated: because someone somewhere screwed somebody else over and politicians needed to Do Something to make sure it wouldn't happen again.

The number and size of the accounts and transactions play a part in how things should be categorized. I think it's more of a stretch to compare this situation to extra money being given to the phone company than depositing into a bank because with the phone company those extra deposits are generally occasional, incidental and small compared to the phone company's total income, whereas for a bank, every dollar is deposited with the expectation that the depositor can get the money back.

Here are some excerpts from the TOS:

Section 9: "This Agreement is to be governed by, construed and enforced according to the laws of Sweden.9. Accounts and Fund Transfers MindArk acknowledges the responsibility to maintain records of all transactions in accordance with corresponding Swedish Legislation."

Well, it's a start. But it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not there is a law that forces them to give money back to the players.

"Account deficits in any situation apart from those described herein are the responsibility of the Participant. MindArk accepts no responsibility for funds misplaced or misused in any incidence, regardless of reason."

Hmm.

Other excerpts from the TOS:

--------------------------

Section 3: "Participant agrees that he or she will use Entropia Universe carefully and will not use it in any way that might result in any loss of his or her or any third party's property or information. MindArk will not take any responsibility if this should occur."

If they get hacked, I lose my money?

-------------------------

Section 5: "MindArk may terminate this Agreement upon notice to Participant. Such termination may be made without reason, and may be for one or more or all Participants."

and a bit later on

"In the event that your account is terminated or cancelled, no refund will be granted."

Ok, that makes me feel REALLY secure.

------------------------------

Section 6: "The participant deposits funds in advance and have the right to withdraw funds on the avatar that are not spent."

In light of the disclaimers of responsibility above and the right to cancel accounts at a whim, I don't think this statement has any force beyond the goodwill of MindArk.

------------------------------------

So, the TOS clauses above mean the only thing guaranteeing that players can get their money back is the goodwill of MindArk. And that's fine for small transactions. Heck, if you sign up for 3-6 months of an MMO, you don't know if they're going to be around then or not, but you also don't expect to be able to get that subscription money back and you aren't giving them a lot of money you expect to be able to get back eventually. However, MindArk wants to talk about big amounts of money and a scale of transactions such that people would have debit cards based on their accounts in PE. That's pretty big stuff. I don't see in the TOS where the players are protected enough for that scale of transactions.

[Michael Hartman]

28.

>>>>>
Heck, if you sign up for 3-6 months of an MMO, you don't know if they're going to be around then or not, but you also don't expect to be able to get that subscription money back and you aren't giving them a lot of money you expect to be able to get back eventually.
>>>>>

I agree that this is the critical difference between PE and other MMOs. In general, I think every responsible MMO needs a clause like the one you quoted, where they reserve the right to terminate someone's account with no refund.

But when the game world is trying to make a real and consistent connection between their virtual currency and real world dollars, things change drastically. Then they are, as someone else stated, approaching the status of a bank.

Imagine if the agreement you signed with a bank when opening an account said they reserved the right to close your account, with no refund or disbursement of the funds currently in it, for whatever reason they deemed necessary. Nobody would use that bank!

[Endie]

29.

Fitzgerald furiously defended PE, saying:

"The people who was denied money almost every time are found out being either a) ingame scammers (thus violating the EULA) or b) had used stolen credit cards. Their frustration over not getting hold of their illegal money usually constitutes badmouthing on the Internet."

Uh-uh... doesn't fly. I know only as much about Lantyssa as most long-term members of an online community do about other long-time posters, but this isn't a scammer griping. Find another defence. How about "if they go paying out when required they'll bleed money like a cutter in the bath".

[randolfe_]

30.

A lot of misconceptions about what constitutes a Bank. The existence of demand-deposits is not sufficient to constitute a Bank. For Paypal or a MMOG with RMT support, there are commodity services which are being rendered sufficient to delineate these transaction from pure banking transactions. Even the [real world] commodity-backed virtual currencies are not regulated as banks.

As to some comments on SL:

Additionally, Linden Labs gives you free L$ for simply signing into the game. How can a game economy exist that simply gives away money unless that money has relatively no value.

Taking the SL economy in aggregate, the weekly stipend is a form of flat-interest. Theoretically, if there were no transaction fees or lot size restrictions, you could move all your L$ to USD and thereby benefit from their flat-interest system. But, even in that world, most players would hold L$ in game for convenience reasons (not to mention the lot size and transaction frictions). That means that the L$ "central bank" benefits by the fact that interest-rate-parity does not hold. They are effectively arbitraging against L$ holders in USDs.

Last time I did the calculations (about 4 months ago), the in-game implied interest rate would need to be nearly 200% in order for CIRP to hold (at 0 arbitrage). This means that even the SL banks that offer "high" overnight interest rates are arbitraging against L$ depositors.

It's not as simple as the "ever inflationary economy" simplification that seems intuitive. Keep in mind that the USD is inflationary too (actually by a good amount in CIRP/PPP terms), so making a statement that L$ are inflating to no value can only be evaluated in relation to how interest-rate-parity is holding or not holding.

One final bit: virtual game currencies do not behave like solely like fiat-currencies. They exhibit many attributes of consumable commodities, which makes sense seeing as they are "consumed" as often or more than they are speculated.

My USD 0.02 (nominal;not deflated)

[thoreau]

31.

@John

If you give away your PIN and ATM card is the bank responsible for any loses? No, and MA is saying the same thing in their EULA when they talk about:

'Section 3: "Participant agrees that he or she will use Entropia Universe carefully and will not use it in any way that might result in any loss of his or her or any third party's property or information. MindArk will not take any responsibility if this should occur.'

They are protecting themselves from players who do not protect their private information.

Additionally, "In the event that your account is terminated or cancelled, no refund will be granted." means that if you intentionally try to hack the system or engage in illegal activity (credit card fraud) you are not entitled to any deposits made. Similar to someone using a check scam in a bank.

[Andy Havens]

32.

@randolfe

Excellent points about SL currency. The other way in which players generate "interest" is in the use of that word in non-monetary terms; the more players there are in a game, the more interest there is.

New player: "What can I do in this neat Second Life world?"

SL God (currently): "You can talk, walk, fly, run, build and buy stuff. As for that buying stuff, thing... here's a few bucks. Go get some decent hair."

Without the "allowance."

SL God: "You can talk, walk, fly, run, build and buy stuff. But if you want to buy stuff, you'll need to throw in some real world dough (even if it's only 10-cents USD), or make some heavy-duty stuff and sell it, or whore yourself out, or sit in a camp-chair for 12 hours, or..."

By giving away an arguably nominal amount of money to new, non-paying users, SL provides an incentive for bringing in customers who will (hopefully) become higher-level players/users/customers. Maybe they will bring in more actual currency. Maybe they will build things that others will buy. Maybe they will upgrade to a paid subscription and buy land and pay those fees. But without some way to "try before they buy," they probably won't. It's just that in the case of SL, they have to "try to buy" before they "buy to buy."

I tend to think of the "allowance" in SL as "coupon" money. Yes, it does "water down" the overall value of the currency in use in SL... the same way that $.50 off your dinner at Denny's "waters down" the total revenue for the meal. But how much of that lost revenue is "breakage?" IE, how much would have been garnered anyway without the coupon? Hard to tell. But study after study in retail suggests that free samples and coupons are huge drivers of buying behavior. My guess is that the same holds true in SL. Without the small amount of "free money" available at the low-end level, I believe there would be far fewer paying SL players.

Let's also not forget that the non-paying SL players are also providing a service to the community simply by being in-game. Part of the fun of a highly social MMO like SL is the number of people you bump into and do stuff with. So by participating, even in a non-economic way, you provide an economic benefit to the system. By playing at all you ARE IN FACT (wait for it...) the content.

My guess is that the aggregate benefit -- in coupon value and personal "entertainment" value -- from free membership players in SL far outweighs the devaluation of the currency they represent. Just my guess.

[Coldstone Cutter]

33.

I can't see this lasting very long. MMORPG's are constantly having to deal with duping and scamming problems. Billions of gp worth of goods were just recently destroyed in -- a glitchy mog that doesnt deserve mention. With a bank card, i could withdraw all the gp i was duping as real life dollars, and then disappear. Without a bank card, i'd have to sell stuff on ebay, which is more difficult and takes more time, increasing the chance you get caught. With a bank card, the company loses the money. Without a bank card, the person who bought stuff loses if the items get destroyed once its realized they were duped, im assuming.

[dmyers]

34.

ooooo.

Dan said, "The social fiction of money."

Now we're getting somewhere.

[thoreau]

35.

@Coldstone

MA does some different things to make their product more secure and hacking less likely. For example, most of the computations occur on the server side. While this creates more lag it makes hacking the client pretty useless unless you want to reskin some Shop Container.

As a +2 year player I have not heard of a single instance of someone duping coin. Urban legends have some duping occuring during Alpha, Beta, and early Gold.

[Max]

36.

@andy

I agree that this is something SL does well. I haven't actually played it, but I have tried PE and they don't.

When I tried PE I didn't want to sink money into the game unless I knew it would be fun, and there was no way for me to tell without putting in money. All I was able to do in the beta was evade animals and perhaps block, and then later harvest some strange secretion from exotic creatures. You could't attack animals without paying money. I got some animals to attack each other but I couldn't loot them. MindArk said there were hidden cash prizes around and about but I never found them and I began to feel that you had to mine or loot creatures to find them anyway.

Additionally, everything in PE degrades over time. So it wasn't even clear to me that buying a gun would allow me to kill very many creatures due to my low stats. After I stopped playing my account was locked and then purged so my limited skills and items were discarded.

I believe the try before you buy stipend that SL provides (if that's what it is) could be one cause of the relative popularity of SL compared to PE.

MindArk may have remedied some of this but I wouldn't be aware.

[genericdefect]

37.

All currencies are inherently suspect to an independent observer. They are modernist projects, social narratives and inherently tools of translation and value universalization.

They generally gain credibility in the absence of observation of anything but subcomponents of the systems and institutions with which they interact.

You perhaps are more familiar with the old phrase, "It is easier to get away with a big lie, than a small one."

[Mikul]

38.

Max's criticisms of PE are no longer valid. There are various things a newbie can do without putting money into the game. I don't know of any other MMORPG that allows people to play for free. I play on an irregular basis; this way I don't feel that I'm wasting a monthly subscription fee. I have never lost anything in the game during an absence of several months at a time. Items don't deteriorate in PE with time, but with use. Your armor, weapons, tools need repair after a lot of use. There are differences in kinds of objects that include durability and frequency of repair. MindArk seems to work constantly at trying new ways to upgrade the game experience, sometimes they misjudge, but I appreciate the effort. I know a fair number of people who play or have played the game. None have felt they were ripped off by MA.

As for the comments about the publicity grabs and the press being easilly gulled -- well, what's new?

[Wanderer]

39.

MA does some different things to make their product more secure and hacking less likely. For example, most of the computations occur on the server side. While this creates more lag it makes hacking the client pretty useless unless you want to reskin some Shop Container.

Most games (with the painfully notable exception of Shadowbane) do all significant computation on the server side. Despite this, dupe exploits have occurred in virtually all of them at one point or another.

One common one works like this: Player A gives a rare item to player B moments before a server shutdown. Player B logs off, saving his character with the item. Player A is still on when the server goes down and is therefore not saved, but instead rolled back to the most recent save, generally a minute or two before the exchange. Now A and B both have the item. Rinse, repeat. Obviously this depends on very precise timing if the server saves state before a shutdown, or the ability to crash the server at will. (I've seen it done both ways) But, despite the fact that this type of exploit has been used probably since the MUD days, every MMOG team seems to have to learn about it the hard way. The critical thing, though, is that there's no need to hack anything -- server or client. It's all in the timing of when they exchange the items.

A game I once played had a number of functions, including some special powers for in-game event hosts, assistant GMs, etc., available through a menu system. Only the people flagged server-side as authorized to use those functions could call up the menus. So far, so good. But they had one big flaw in the system: The server unquestioningly accepted any response code and dutifully executed the indicated function. It executed that function even if it wasn't on the menu it had sent out. Some players playing with a packet editor figured this out. They put in random response codes to see what they could make happen. Thankfully they didn't hit any of the really dangerous ones, though spawning bosses in town caused a fair bit of chaos. The client was intact. The server was intact. But the data between the two was tampered with ever so slightly, just a single byte in fact, and the results were catastrophic.

So don't believe that doing the computations on the server makes a game exploit-proof. It can be as simple as a matter of timing.

[zadkiel]

40.

Well, having played PE for about a month, I can say that it is definitely not like a bank. A much better analogy would be an online casino.

Example: You deposit 200 in-game dollars (PED) by using the interface and your credit card (US$20). You then spend some of this money on a weapon, ammunition, and mining supplies (or crafting supplies, pick one). At even a moderate weapon and skill level, you've just spent pretty close to all of your twenty bucks.

In so doing, you are gambling that you will either find mineral deposits (mining) or kill a creature carrying more money than you spent on supplies to get it. The success rate is about the same as it is on a slot machine... i.e., if you're not lucky, (most of) your money is gone.

If you are lucky, you make a small profit. If you are EXTREMELY lucky, you hit it big and get a HOF (Hall of Fame) for a sizable amount of PED. What is more likely is that you will get a 60-90% rate of return, and some of the items that you find can be sold for more than their base worth (minerals routinely trade for 115-160% of their "base" value, etc.)

Like a casino, there is a constant scrolling world spam of people who have killed a creature, found a deposit or crafted an item worth more than 50 PED. This is the online equivalent of the bells constantly ringing on the slots because someone on your bloc (not you) has just hit a 5 or 10 dollar mini-jackpot.

There is also a Hall of Fame feature which prominently lists the people who got the highest PED-value items in the last 24 hours and of all time... many of the values of the All-Time High (ATH) hits have increased drastically in the past 6 months, ranging as high as US$10,000 (100,000 PED).

I can't report on getting money back, because I haven't made a withdrawal.

[Bruce Woodcock]

41.

>Everyone, not just Project Entropia, should
>provide independently accountable reports on
>number of players/subscribers, concurrent and
>peak users, and, for those that support
>transactions (whether real or virtual) reporting
>on that as well... and whatver other metrics are
>appropriate.

Yes, and they should send them all to me so I can distribute them to the world. :)

Bruce

[Aziphirael]

42.

PE for me is business, just as I play SL in the same fashion. I suppose making money is a way of keeping score and profits do make me slightly biased to the comments here. I do know of at least one other person who deposited the full US$100,000 to buy that space station, but they were beaten to it.

Still I think there are a lot of hurdles before such an ATM card could exist. Both from a real world and virtual world point of view. I've yet to see what MAs policy will be on scams and fraud.

Still you can now buy Real World items from within the game using your PEDs, such as a Magazine, Clothing and Artworks, which are then mailed to you. So who knows maybe PE will turn into a 3d version of the shopping channel ;-)

[Aleks]

43.

I blogged about this post on The Guardian's gamesblog, and received this comment from someone claiming to be Jon "Neverdie" Jacobs. Thought it would be an addition to the discussion over here:

"First of all if u know anything about Actor/filmmakers, you will know we passionatley promote our movies. Usualy they are labours of Love.

Promoting Project Entropia at Digital HOLLYWOOD ( read that again HOLLYWOOD) was an expression of Love on my part for a Virtual World in which my Avatar NEVERDIE is very popular like a Movie star!

It is only natural that I would leap at the opportunity to speak about a world in which I'm well known and passionate about. I fly to film festivals all over the world to promote movies, i appear in at my own expense...

For those of you who work real jobs and get paid by the hour, im sure this is an alien concept , but for those of use who pursue our dreams 4 a living it's all we've got..

There numerous interviews with me on the web regarding my career in indie films that clearly show how i operate and will help to shed light on my digital hollywood appearance.

http://imdb.com/name/nm0414481/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jon+jacobs+movies&btnG=Google+Search

Lets not forget everyone, that the world of MMORPG's is new...Games like EQ and WOW are psimply games. What gamers would waster thier own money to make public appearances for Sony and Blizzard... But Entropia universe is not a game its a Bonafide attempt at VIRTUAL REALITY, its a place where our fame and fortune is real and has real value...

I have personally paid my mortgage a few times by withdrawin cash from PE and since I bought the Asteroid resort. Iam now making a living playing Entropia, which is why I post here...This is livlihood, I have always been a great believer in the idea of Virtual Reality and wrote scripts abouts. NEVERDIE existed as the World Champion Roleplayer in one of my screenplays before I ever heard about project Entropia. I'm amazed as you all are at the fact that the Entropia Economy grew as rapidly as it did and that I was at the forefront of that growth for one simple reason... the fact that I had aquired all the best gear.. That is what most gamers try to do... When Mindark added Treasure Island and The asteroid they were of course the greatest prizes so of course I soldd all my priceless Gear to aquire one...

Now I own Club NEVERDIE and it truly is the greatest Virtual item. I am very proud to be here at this moment in time championing what I see ats a truly exciting development in gaming.

How different is it to actualy living inside your favorite sci-fi movie? Thats kind of what it feels like to me and since I am an actor among other things, this is very much in line with what I like to do....

Regarding the Entropia Credit cards. From what I undersatnd they are NOT Co-branded Crads like your American Airlines cards... They are Debit cards that access the funds in our avatars accounts...

Meaning we can make money in Virtual Reality and Spend it in Reality as easily as you make money in Reality and spemnd it in reality...

Also for anyone reading all this, click back to the Terra Nova blog and u will see plenty of people responded to the questions raised there...

Lastly

Virtual Reality is in its infancy, like the America was in the early days of the west.. It's a land of opportunity but its also tough... The ones who have done the best in my experience are the ones that didnt quit. And the ones who have used thier imagnition and treated it as something more than just a game everyday..

come visit me at Club NEVERDIE!"

(post here: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/05/17/will_you_be_paying_with_project_entropia_dollars_or_pounds_sterling_sir.html)

[sunbeam]

44.

Thanks Aleks. The follow-up comments made by NEVERDIE are intersting as well, as they show the slanderous article by Dan Hunter to be wrong (I guess Dan didn't even bother checking the facts with the company behind the game before publishing it which is really nice, him being a Professor in Ethics and all...)

The link Aleks gave is broken though. I divided it into two for those interested.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/05/17/
will_you_be_paying_with_project_entropia_dollars_or_pounds_sterling_sir.html

[Thomas Malaby]

45.

What utter crap, sunbeam. As the OP clearly shows, and Dan reiterated further on, his issue was with the propensity of many media outlets to swallow the press releases from PE whole, without much at all in the way of verification.

Yes, this is indirectly a criticism of MindArk as well, because it suggests that flashy stunts are all they have. If all MindArk (or its fanbois) can offer in reply is (to me, suspiciously contrived) indignation and anecdotal reports of individual successes, then that's not much of an answer.

I haven't played PE, nor do I mean to, but having studied gambling for many years, I can honestly say that everything I've heard from posters supporting PE here and in related discussions around the web is consistent with how an unregulated casino (and it's small subset of "real winners") would act in the face of critical attention, and this in turn is consistent with what little I can find out about how PE's economy works. Against that, Zaddkiel's critical post as a user of PE is a very helpful counterweight, but none of that changes the fact that we are not being given clear information (about the game mechanics, for example) that would give us reason to be other than skeptical. And, as Dan's post discussed, that skepticism is the wiser course for now.

[Matt Mihaly]

46.

Thomas Malaby wrote:

Against that, Zaddkiel's critical post as a user of PE is a very helpful counterweight, but none of that changes the fact that we are not being given clear information (about the game mechanics, for example) that would give us reason to be other than skeptical. And, as Dan's post discussed, that skepticism is the wiser course for now.

Surely the wiser course would be to just create an account and do some actual research rather than relying on hearsay to slam them?

--matt

[Thomas Malaby]

47.

I think someone should do that, Matt. Absolutely. It won't be me, but it's definitely needed. That said, what we're talking about here is the status of the public information about Project Entropia. Yes, having experienced, critical opinions from the point of view of user experience is needed, but that is not the only position from which it valid to levy a criticism, especially if that criticism is something like, "we have a hard time believing your public claims without better information." It's odd to me that this (rather narrow) critique of the quality of information that MindArk produces about its own project should spawn such heated responses (beyond those from MindArk which, as we've seen, are part of a pattern).

[Aziphirael]

48.

In response to Thomas Malaby comments, ultimately it depends what you do within the EU universe. Some of it from does have the patina of gambling, something that I like to see removed over time.

However, there is still a subset of users who treat EU as a business. My entire ingame experience is one of trading, I don't do any other activity. Trading is perhaps the only ingame activity that does, if done well, result in constant profit. Owning land is probably another. Whether that constitues gambling is one for you to decide.

I'm biased as I've said, I make a constant profit and in that sense probably makes it harder to see the other side. I also have had business dealings with MA through the development of the Real Life magazine. Plus business dealings with Neverdie and the other landowner Deathifier with his Treasure Island. So I suppose we are the elite of EU society.

However, I was a newbie once ;-) And I know how difficult it is as a game to play. Chance is a cruel mistress and EU is one of those games where you either have to be very lucky, or are willing to invest the capital to create a business.

Because EU is business for me, I also have built into the venture the idea of mitgating risk. Its why I play Second Life (predominantly in currency trading) as it spreads business risk, which is a good thing. I suppose I'm a fanboi, but then I'm a fanboi of the Real Life stock market and property investment and I don't see EU or even SL any different its just another part of my financial portfolio and business assets.

Having said that I do think that MA does overdo it with this press releases. Its better I think to launch the ATM card so that everybody can see it in action, rather then let speculation and headlines take over :-)

[Thomas Malaby]

49.

Now that is a helpful post about EU (PE). So glad you contributed that, Aziphirael.

[Weefz]

50.

Thomas Malaby:

I think the trigger for much of the defensiveness is that Dan appears to have been just as lax in his research as the journalists he criticises.

Yes, it's good to be skeptical of news but if you're going to criticise a press release for lacking pertinent information it probably shouldn't be done with a post that propagates unresearched speculation - namely that it's just a way to withdraw your own deposits and leaving out the fact that you do actually have money-making opportunities within the game so can theoretically withdraw more than you originally deposited.

Unless he's practising some sort of zen journalism where he practices exactly what he's criticising in order to keep us on our toes.

[Atrayo]

51.

I'm one of the self-exiled from the initial PE community of yore. Still i find it suspect that MindArk does not extend any sort of bonding for user accounts. In instances of a hacked or other calmity that is beyond an authentic user account.

Ebay covers user sales for up to $1,000 US i believe. With some Online Brokerage firms beginning to offer insured bonding in case of account theft. This seems like a reasonable approach, but would tread onto what if the company server farm crashed or the company went insolvent.

Years ago in the PE Infobooth community official forum before it was pulled. I asked the scary question does MindArk have secure protocols dealing with RL crinimal "Money Laundering" if it were to occur. The response i received back then from the PR Manager Erik Johnels (long since gone due to turnover) wasn't satisfactory.

Again now that EU is under appearances hitting its full stride. I wonder how robust a MMOG like EU or SL is against money laundering by unsavory outfits or caretls.

[Aziphirael]

52.

Hey Atrayo, good too see you again :-)

Anyway no worries Thomas, think its always important to have a discussion rather then start a flamefest.

[Cougar]

53.

ROFL, again...
You say:

"This is the kind of story that we love here at Terra Nova"

But your explanation about why you like it is wrong.

You like this story because it has a great potential, so you can talk big about something you have little idea about.

"Now, MindArk may well be a scrupulously honest organization. I’m not suggesting here that it is acting fraudulently. But its PR stunts are designed to make a big impression—“Virtual Space Station sells for $100,000!!”, “Virtual currency crosses over into Real World!!”—and on analysis, they are nothing but bullshit."

You known little, you beter keep your mouth shut about waht you don't know.

Ok, you say it is aa regular bank account, but i can access that acount both from real life ATM card at or from my PED card. Bullshit you say? ROFL at that.
Not a "big deal", absolutely no one did that before.

And every game company makes PR stunts, you are just making a big fuss about this one, because it is unique and because of other reasons, so absurd, i can not understand.

[Silver di Avlo]

54.

First of all, I think theres always a good place for sound criticism. Transparency within the coorporate world, is nothing more than an illusion in general.

As for one who have studied the development of virtual communities for more than a decade, I would say that Entropia Universe, have a clear vision of what the next generation of plattforms will consist of.

I have followed all the major transactions within PE/EU, and from what I have seen theres no foul play. For instance there have been open auctions on every major land or estate sale. Even the so called Station, sold to Neverdie, had a buyout on 100.000 USD, and that was met by him. The first bidwar on the so called Treasure Island, was totally clear and open.

I think theres a serious interest for these "happenings" within the greater public and media. So whats wrong with that?

However, what really is a scam, and a fraud, is World of Warcraft, spread among kids, forced to pay tremendous amounts of money, in lack of friends and real world relations. Now that isnt how a virtual community should be built. The difference between a game, and a virtual community, is exploited hard by companies like Sony, Vivendi, and others.

Entropia and MindArk delivers a new frontier for virtual communities. Thats not exploiting youngsters, and doesnt require to spend your life with it. WoW is nothing more than a "lolipop" for kids.

Silver di Avlo
aka LPK.

[Alex Hagen]

55.

Sunbeam said:
"(I guess Dan didn't even bother checking the facts with the company behind the game before publishing it which is really nice, him being a Professor in Ethics and all...)"

Anyone else think Sunbeam is Jan Timkrans? There are a lot of similarities in posting style and content, like the (laughable) emphasis on ethics and using the (incorrect) word slander instead of libel.

[Jason]

56.

@Mikul

Max's criticisms of PE are no longer valid. There are various things a newbie can do without putting money into the game. I don't know of any other MMORPG that allows people to play for free. I play on an irregular basis; this way I don't feel that I'm wasting a monthly subscription fee.

You should look around, there are actually a number of free MMOs around... Second Life for one, Puzzle Pirates, Shadowbane, Planetside (up to a certain level/rank), and more...

[Phaser Chaos]

57.

Before critic something you should try it first!

You cant apreciate a goog bottle of wine, if you dont like drinking wine.

Now, for all of you who thinks MA is getting some kind of scheme to fool others, check your words careffuly. MA is a bussiness, has a bussiness it needs to generate profits to cover all the expenses of Entropia Universe. We (players) pay those expenses with item decay. Any item you use in the Virtual world will decay with use. That aply to a real life item, like a car. You need to change the oil too and repair some things that will eventualy broken.

Some items in EU are very rare. Thats why much of them cost alot of money.
People dont need to deposit any money to play EU, they can do it for free and make money trading and so on. Thats a hard start but its possible, EU, is not intend to be a Virtual job that you can make your life on it.
Buying and selling items is not new in MMORPG, Diablo from Blizzard, Ultima online, World of warcraft and so on, do not use real currency money but some items are so very rare that people pay REAL money to have them. Why it should be diferent in EU?
I think the point here is just since EU ITS NOT A GAME, most of the people cant accept a new concept of iteractive entertainemet. Yes EU is a virtual world like many others, yes EU uses real world money (but do not ask for a monthly fee like many others), no EU is not a rpg game since you dont have any kind of "score".

So unless some people dont have anything to do then critic some companies about they products, i sugest they try those products before speeking.

Of course EU is not perfect and not even MA, but this is something new and we (players), them (Mindark) need to learn and adapt to the experience. I sugest to all of you to download EU, for free, and try it out. Otherwise just shut up since you dont know what you talking about. MA, takes my money because I want to. And yes, if MA improve the virtual world with my money then hell, im gonna keep depositing.

[Girts Niedra]

58.

Great. You write without knowing any facts.
1) ATM idea is amazing because before you had to wait for several months to withdraw your money from Entropia Universe.
2) There are may representatives of MA in each country.

[Girts Niedra]

59.

3) I am a player @ EU, and yes, I am earning money - but I had to invest too.

[Lantyssa]

60.

From Fitzgerald:
The people who was denied money almost every time are found out being either a) ingame scammers (thus violating the EULA) or b) had used stolen credit cards. Their frustration over not getting hold of their illegal money usually constitutes badmouthing on the Internet.

This is way late, however if someone stumbles upon this later as I have now, Endie's quote which generated the above response was from me. I was simply warning those on our message board (f13) to be careful if they wished to play PE.

I would like to believe I am neither a scammer nor using stolen bank accounts. At the time my friend and I were playing it was early in MA's history when they were having a lot of issues. They may have resolved them and their support may be better now, but I cannot say as we attempted to cash out long ago and lost interest in pursuing money we expect to lose anyways upon its initial deposit into the game.

I still believe the concept of PE is interesting, although fraught with many pitfalls.

[arthritis]

61.

The problem is that Entropia Universe is a novel thing, but is also looked upon as a deviant of sorts, something strange, something one cant understand.

[dinamo]

62.

Great. You write without knowing any facts.
1) ATM idea is amazing because before you had to wait for several months to withdraw your money from Entropia Universe.
2) There are may representatives of MA in each country.

[Oniris]

63.

Hi all,

I would first like to state that I have never tried withdrawing any money from the Entropia Universe. Now, for all saying that Entropia is a scam, or a disguised casino, I still do not have any experience to fully deny your arguments, but maybe the following will change your mind.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://www.bloomberg.com/invest/calculators/currency.html

Second life gives you a one time present of 250LE. In Entropia Universe, there are a few ways to make money without spending any, but I will only talk about the one i have been consistently using:

Sweat Gathering.

Now, I can be considered a newbie in the world, with only a few days of experience, but I am a very stubborn lad and have decided not to invest any real money into the game, at least until I get to see more of the game and be sure that it is a good investment. The process of gathering sweat is a boring one, you must get near a hostile creature and start a concentration mantra, following which, you will start to use your mindforce and suck in some kind of mental force called Vibrant sweat.

First of all, you have around 40% chance of getting attacked, and being a broke newbie, the only alternative to death would be running away, which you seldom can pull. Secondly, I would say that you succeed in gathering the sweat in maybe 10% of the time. When you do, it's between two and twenty bottles.

Now, little calculations, if sold in bulk (1000 bottles), sweat is currently worth about 10PED (1US$). Meaning 10 bottles are worth 1 cent. I make around 200 bottles an hour, that's 20cents an hour, 2 Euros per day, 60 Euros per month.

There are ways to make the sweat gathering faster, namedly grouping with other people, and your sweat gathering skill, your "dodging" skill, as well as a few others improve with every hunt. BUT. With my current skills, I could be earning around 60 Euros per month, and that's the important part.

Monthly Minimum wages:
Angola: 5400 Angolan Kwanza = 67US$
Azerbaidjan: 150000 MANAT (AZM) = 32.6655 US DOLLAR
Bangladesh: 2650 (BDT) = 37.9249 US DOLLAR
Burkina Faso: 22800 BURKINO FASO (XOF) = 46.2912 US$
Burundi Franc: 4800 BURUNDI FRANC (BIF) = 4.5951 US$
Cameroon Franc: 23514 XAF) = 47.7409 US$
Erithrea: 325 ERITREAN NAKFA (ERN) = 16.284 EURO (EUR)

Should I continue with the alphabet?

[Mohegan Sun]

64.

Mohegan Sun Casino Hotel and Live Entertainment. Live music and entertainment, casino top headlining concerts and premier sporting events in the casino Mohegan Sun Arena ... Preved Medved zima prishla davay chto dumat.

[Leo]

65.

I dont know but why i don find such informative and profitable blogs so often,I suspect blogging world is becoming so small that we cant find such lucrative blogs like this one.

[Leo]

66.

I dont know but why i don find such informative and profitable blogs so often,I suspect blogging world is becoming so small that we cant find such lucrative blogs like this one.