Got MMOG

Slashdot recently cited a National Public Radio story (Marketplace, November 10):

...Mitchell Wade (Got Game: How the Gamer Generation Is Reshaping Business Forever) (talks) about the video game industry and how first person shooter games will change workplace dynamics for the next generation of employees...

GameGirl's summary (November 10) described these assertions about workers who have played games:

1. Willingness to take measured risks - gamers learn this innately long before they get to business school.

2. Different way of interacting with others. For example, less respect for hierarchy and seniority. In game world, anyone can be beaten by a 12-year-old. Gamers tend to respect ability, not seniority.

3. Seriousness about expertise, and being rewarded for that expertise. No matter how many times you fail in a game, if you REALLY want it, you CAN beat it...

GameGirl's post was based on the NPR presentation, which in turn was inspired by Wade and John Beck's book Got Game: How the Gamer Generation Is Reshaping Business Forever.   Laurie Taylor's more critical review of this book is available here...

I recently exchanged email with friends about some of these themes; a number of stories emerged how we at various times encountered online talented young players who ran guilds/clans with great ability.  A friend described his 10 year old son as having organized a First Person Shooter (FPS) game clan.  He attributes this experience has helping his son lead and organize RL sports teams.

Are there real world take-aways for MMOG players that uniquely belong to them?    In other words is there a significantly different experience transfer granted to MMOG players over, say, clan players of FPS games?  Might it involve treadmills - we are a patient lot.  Perhaps it involves greater fluency  in both the "real" and the "virtual"?    The defining feature of MMOGs is the first "M"  - massive social systems contextualized by large worlds. Yet, as some of you commented earlier ("Socially (Charged) Software"), perhaps it is really not all that different from socialization in chat rooms (or even at the Elk's club). 

GameGirl also noted from the NPR discussion, that

...these characteristics were found in their research pool regardless of whether the subjects play games currently; the important thing for the data seems to be that they had played games...

This leads to a thought about casuality in our space.  Is a proclivity to inhabit the geek ghetto a predisposition, or trully a persisted altering experience?

Comments

[Edward Castronova]

1.

Nathan> Which leads to a thought about casuality in our space. Is a proclivity to inhabit the geek ghetto a predisposition, or trully a persisted altering experience?

Causality is always a tough issue. But here we have the opening of a real, new choice, which forms a kind of natural experiment. If people change their behavior when offered an alternative online existence, the default conclusion has to be that the online existence is the cause of the behavioral change. The most troubling thing to most audiences is the prospect that the 'geek ghetto' is something that people just like them are choosing, to an increasing degree.

[Brask Mumei]

2.

For most people, I'd say the number on takeaway from playing MMORPGs is that People Are Broken.

In my case, I went into MMORPGs believing people were broken, so I took away the fact they are not quite as broken as I had believed.

- Brask Mumei

[Adam Miller]

3.

IF MMOGs had been available when I was much younger, during the time that my personality and knowledge was dramatically being shaped, things would have been very different for me.

For example, participating in a dragon raid versus playing in the creek with my 3 neighborhood buddies provide radically different learning experiences. The dragon raid skills are much more useful in my modern work.

What I learned from playing in the creek with our makeshift guns was wasted the very day that I decided not to join the Army.

[Matt Mihaly]

4.

I don't see any fundamental difference between MUDs/MMOGs and any real-world community except in terms of how you access it. So...perhaps you could say that the takeaway is dealing with the interface. One may learn to type more fluidly. If one doesn't speak the language of the MMOG as a native tongue, perhaps one is forced to increase one's proficiency at the language of the MMOG. Beyond that kind of thing though, I think it'd be hard to come up with anything unique that you're going to learn from them.

--matt

[Nick Yee]

5.

Another thing is that you have to consider the demographic range playing these games. How often does a teenager in real life get to collaborate with college students, early professionals, middle-aged home-makers, retirees, overseas military and foreigners - all in the same group working towards a goal that will take them a few hours?

Heck - How often does a teenager in real life get to lead a group of people all OLDER than them?

And what in a typical teenager's real life could compare with the sheer emotional, logistical and tactical complexity of running a raid?

[Matt Mihaly]

6.

Nick Yee wrote:
Another thing is that you have to consider the demographic range playing these games. How often does a teenager in real life get to collaborate with college students, early professionals, middle-aged home-makers, retirees, overseas military and foreigners - all in the same group working towards a goal that will take them a few hours?

FPS clan. Volunteer organization.
--matt

[Mark Asher]

7.

"1. Willingness to take measured risks - gamers learn this innately long before they get to business school."

Marbles, softball, hoops, four-square -- kids have been taking measured risks in games since before videogames came about. You want measured risks? Play tennis and decide if you want to hit down the middle of go for a winner.

"2. Different way of interacting with others. For example, less respect for hierarchy and seniority. In game world, anyone can be beaten by a 12-year-old. Gamers tend to respect ability, not seniority."

Same with traditional games, although ability is physical moreso than mental in many games. Of course, FPS are about twitch skills moreso than mental skills.

"3. Seriousness about expertise, and being rewarded for that expertise. No matter how many times you fail in a game, if you REALLY want it, you CAN beat it. No doubt a helpful attitude in business."

Not sure about this one. Some business ideas are just bad and trying to make them work again and again isn't a good idea.

I see very little that computer games teach that traditional games don't also teach, and most traditional games have the benefit of building physical health while computer games may contribute to a lack of physical health. I think traditional games do a better job of building socials skills too.

[Yaka St.Aise]

8.

From the top of my head and only not yet mentionned stuff.

Anonymity: people have to take each other for what they portray. There is specific BS-detection and adaptative behavior skills that can be learnt here.
The same happens in about any online community, but the time frame (longer, yet RT) and quality of interactions (goal-oriented yet lasting) are specific to MMOGs.

No Undo/Save/Reload: the counterpoison of the computer culture. You can't go back in time when you screw up in a MMOG. Of course you can 'die' without consequences and keep being stupid, but the involvment of other players makes your decisions and actions consequential in some ways.

Semi-caveat 1: it is true also of RL, yet MMOGs offer a good lab where you can make more experiments that likely won't hurt much you separated RL records.
So not a skill, but an interesting overall learning tool.

Semi-caveat 2: Arguably you can meta and partially invalidate this dynamic by resetting yourself (new char, new game, new group of playmates) but there is still a permanent loss and a 'price' to pay for your mistakes.

Excellent training to become an office slave: MMOGs teach you how to be a hamster, pursue meaningless goals, feel entitled yet cope with a life of frustration resulting from higher powers rightfully treating you like crap.
Irony is, the most likely place for office slaves to seek relief and escape the daily meaningless grind is in MMOGs.

Hmm... maybe people aren't broken after all, maybe they're just incredibly apt at adapting to broken environments ?

[Nick Yee]

9.

Matt Mihaly wrote:
FPS clan. Volunteer organization.

With regards to FPS clans, I thought we were comparing games to real life. With volunteer organizations, how many of those are led by a teenager and where most of the other members are older than them? How often do volunteer activities approach the complexity of mid-level or high-end raids in MMOs? How often are volunteer organizations truly collaborating as opposed to just performing menial tasks in parallel?

[Matt Mihaly]

10.

Nick Yee wrote:
With regards to FPS clans, I thought we were comparing games to real life. With volunteer organizations, how many of those are led by a teenager and where most of the other members are older than them? How often do volunteer activities approach the complexity of mid-level or high-end raids in MMOs? How often are volunteer organizations truly collaborating as opposed to just performing menial tasks in parallel?

Well, I'd argue that an FPS clan is part of real life, but that's an argument for a different thread. (I'd argue the same about clan raids.)

I don't think that most volunteer organizations involve kids to the same extent, but my argument was that I see no -fundamental- difference. Of course it's not the exact same experience as anything else, but I see the differences in an MMOG as matters of scale (up or down) rather than being fundamentally different.

--matt

[Nathan Combs]

11.

Brask>

For most people, I'd say the number on takeaway from playing MMORPGs is that People Are Broken.

In my case, I went into MMORPGs believing people were broken, so I took away the fact they are not quite as broken as I had believed.

I think this captures something. I recall in the early days, one used to be so amazed how apparently "selfless" sometimes folks can be in PvE and even PvP worlds. Not just myself and folks I talked to - but seemed to recall even the reviewers and discussion forums. I think we've become a bit more jaded now (because its taken for granted) about how well these cooperative social systems can work when they work well.

[Constance Steinkuehler]

12.

I gotta agree with Nathan here: people learn a world of cooperation and informal sociability, some of which we largely take for granted. I just banged out a (first draft) paper on how MMOGs may very well serve as 'third spaces,' [0.1MB.pdf], especially for American youth culture. This isn't to argue that they *always* do; rather, that they have that potential. And, echoing Nathan here, I think that is one of those ubiquitous facts that we tend to overlook because it seems like a rather mundane observation. When perhaps it isn't. (Though my writing up of it may be. muhahaha).

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad]

13.

Nathan Combs> I recall in the early days, one used to be so amazed how apparently "selfless" sometimes folks can be in PvE and even PvP worlds.

And even more so in the first generations of MUDs, but then the players also have a sense of ownership in smaller systems. People that spend a lot of time in the environment do that for a reason: boredom, lack of social interaction in the physical word etc... Where is the amazing part?

[Nathan Combs]

14.

People that spend a lot of time in the environment do that for a reason: boredom, lack of social interaction in the physical word etc... Where is the amazing part?

By this argument, those who are thorougly engaged and socially well connected in RL should be even more selfless. Boston at rush hour suggests otherwise...

...The amazing part is that for whatever reason, these tribal systems and their treadmills tend to work, and the social lubricant of these worlds will often bring out the best in people... Not to say they can't be improved upon - but that that they do work as well as they do means something.

I think it would be a fascinating research topic to try some of this out: develop metrics and compare RL and VW experiences with regards to the behavior of players w/regards to social cooperation (vs. defection, e.g)...

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad]

15.

Nathan Combs> By this argument, those who are thorougly engaged and socially well connected in RL should be even more selfless. Boston at rush hour suggests otherwise...

How did you reach this conclusion? You are arguing the opposite of what I did, and it is completely unrelated to my points.