Massive Incorporated, who specialise in the dynamic insertion of advertisements into games with an online component, has just secured an additional $5.5 million in funding from a couple of VC firms.
So w00t, big biz will soon get excited about filling virtual worlds with brands 'n banners. Let’s hope immersion triumphs, or this is what we might face..
- ** you hack monster for 80pts of damage
** you hack monster for 100pts of damage
>monster: did you know you can get ‘monster’ discounts at QuickieMart
** you hack monster for 10pts of damage
* you have killed monster
* you gain 1000XP
>would you like to convert these to 1 QuickieMart loyalty point (Y/N)
I can see it now....
"Only $10 a month extra gets you a free "no ads" pass! You no longer have to sit through the 30 second commercial everytime you boot up the game and don't see all the annoying pop up ads other players normally do!"
Posted by: Lee Delarm | Jul 22, 2004 at 09:19
Or worse..
Look north
Ahead you see a vendor standing under a golden arch. He offers you ye’ meaty patty between two loaves and a special happy-patty with bonus happy-patty-hat. He tells you that happy-patties give a special bonus for the young of the land.
take happy-patty
you are holding a delicious happy-patty
eat patty
+1 strength, +1 stamina, +2 charm
Posted by: ren | Jul 22, 2004 at 09:44
I saw this news at Gamasutra, along with a story about Microsoft's ad budget including spots for Halo 2 in theaters this summer. My only question was whether advertising in online games will take the form of self-contained commercials [insert 15-second spot for DragonCola], or show up only slightly more subtly as "product placement" (e.g., Sony brand datapads in SWG). Then I realized the correct answer was "both, plus any other form that can be imagined."
Personally I'm a devout capitalist, but even I have problems with the idea of shoehorning RL products into fictional worlds. So long, Immersion; give my regards to Suspension of Disbelief on your way out....
Bottom line: does anyone seriously believe that some form of dynamic advertising inside online games *isn't* going to happen?
Posted by: Flatfingers | Jul 22, 2004 at 11:25
Ren>you are holding a delicious happy-patty
Hey, I wanted fries with that.
Many virtual worlds already have advertising in them, so players can sell things to one another. In-context ads are fine.
Out-of-context ads aren't fine. Back in the old MUD1 days, we joked about "There is a Wilkinson's Sword here". It seemed obvious then as now that you can't have out-of-context ads if you want to maintain the fiction.
You could have interstitial ads, ie. ads that appear when you crank up your software but before they allow you into the virtual world. These wouldn't break immersion, just intensely annoy (and yes, ad people, even if they're witty, amusing and intelligent they'll still intensely annoy).
The first virtual world to take such ads would, of course, find itself obliged to host ads for other, competing virtual worlds.
Richard
Posted by: Richard Bartle | Jul 22, 2004 at 11:39
The other aspect of this that bothers me is that we will in effect be paying to see this advertising, because I doubt the game manufacturers or retailers will give us a break on price, even though margin for the manufacturer will increase since ad agencies will be paying them...
Posted by: Slippy | Jul 22, 2004 at 12:45
Hmm, haven't we seen this before?
Oh yeah - in April, but that time it was a joke.
Posted by: BBC | Jul 22, 2004 at 16:41
Some thoughts on the trend:
http://www.emarketingiq.com/news/1409-eMarketingIQ_news.html
(via Clickable Culture via Watercooler Games)
Posted by: greglas | Jul 22, 2004 at 16:43
What game(s) are these going to be on?
Ian Schwartz
[email protected]
www.alphavillegazette.com
Posted by: Ian | Jul 22, 2004 at 18:30
Personally, I was picturing shields with corporate logos... a shield with a Pepsi logo costs 10 gp, while a shield with no logo is 15 gp. You could even be a member of the "Pepsi" guild.
Just imagine how well marketers could target ads at individual players... if someone is logged onto a virtual world for 100's to 1000's of hours, marketers will be able to learn quite a lot about the individual. Don't be surprised if NPCs occasionally ask you hidden personality-test questions, or what kind of car you drive in the real world. It all goes into building up the profile.
Here's a obvious example: A marketer knows what time zone your're in. They also know when you regularly start/stop playing, and how much you played today. It wouldn't be that difficult to guess when your dinner time is, and recommend that a pizza be delivered to your house. You could even order the pizza directly from the VW, and have it charged to your VW's credit card.
Or, more subtly, around dinner time all the enemy orcs seem to be holding shields with the Dominos pizza logo.
Posted by: Mike Rozak | Jul 22, 2004 at 19:08
Too late.
Ren said:
>Or worse..
>Look north
>Ahead you see a vendor standing under a golden >arch. He offers you ye’ meaty patty between two >loaves and a special happy-patty with bonus >happy-patty-hat. He tells you that happy-patties
>give a special bonus for the young of the land.
This is so *last year*:
An article: http://www.pcgameworld.com/story.php/id/531
A picture of the McTreats kiosk in TSO:
http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~sansone/twitchell/food_mcdonalds2.jpg
Randy
Posted by: F. Randall Farmer | Jul 22, 2004 at 20:45
There're already plenty of games with ads in them. Ever play Crazy Taxi or True Crimes? The latter's especially jarring--one of the random crime missions involves some George Lucas-alike's Motorola phone being stolen. Why the police dispatcher needs to mention the brand of phone, they didn't quite say...
Posted by: arto | Jul 22, 2004 at 21:54
Was also going to add the McDonalds Stand in TSO.
Ian
[email protected]
www.alphavillegazette.com
Posted by: Ian | Jul 23, 2004 at 01:30
Brands from outside the industry have been in the game industry for years. In fact, I think there are a number of examples where some of the most popular games in the industry are based solely around an outside brand or two. Ex. Madden NFL, 007, SWG, etc. Brands are so much a part of everyday life that I think we can expect them in any industry that goes main stream.
The reverse is also true, where 'game' brands are creeping into other industries. I think we will see just as much, if not more, brand crossover from the game industry to other industries.
However, whenever I read a post like this, I have to wonder what everyone's house looks like. I'm not sure about Europe, but most Japanese and American houses that I visit are filled to the brim with hundreds of brand labels easily visible to anyone casually walking through them. If this is how we enjoy our most intimate living spaces, you can be assured that most consumers will hardly take notice as brands become an increasingly important part of virtual spaces.
-bruce
Posted by: Bruce Boston | Jul 23, 2004 at 02:49
Bruce wrote:
However, whenever I read a post like this, I have to wonder what everyone's house looks like. I'm not sure about Europe, but most Japanese and American houses that I visit are filled to the brim with hundreds of brand labels easily visible to anyone casually walking through them. If this is how we enjoy our most intimate living spaces, you can be assured that most consumers will hardly take notice as brands become an increasingly important part of virtual spaces.
Not just living spaces either. Just look at clothed people. They are often decked out in advertisements. Nike shoes, t-shirts advertising a sports team, jackets advertising Tommy Hilfiger, etc.
However, I think the issue is that while people will accept it (and even welcome it) in "modern" settings, it seems quite jarring in spaces where the advertising breaks the fiction of the world.
For whatever reason, it is more annoying to see something inappropriate that you know the developers put there than it is to hear a player say, "Mmmm, my Dominos pizza just arrived."
--matt
Posted by: Matt Mihaly | Jul 23, 2004 at 03:02
However, whenever I read a post like this, I have to wonder what everyone's house looks like. I'm not sure about Europe, but most Japanese and American houses that I visit are filled to the brim with hundreds of brand labels easily visible to anyone casually walking through them. If this is how we enjoy our most intimate living spaces, you can be assured that most consumers will hardly take notice as brands become an increasingly important part of virtual spaces.
Yes, however, in RL we are apparently able to disregard brand labels easily by ignoring them. It may be a little different if, exploiting the mechanics/narrative of the world, VW's force folk to linger upon branded objects (you have to eat the McPatty to get the power-up) and ponder their message (puzzle quest).
Posted by: Nathan Combs | Jul 23, 2004 at 05:55
Matt> Not just living spaces either. Just look at clothed people.
Nike at least has some status as a clothing brand. A more extreme example would be something like these which I saw on sale at Target *and* being worn by people last year. Fashion as adspace.
Posted by: greglas | Jul 23, 2004 at 06:24
Randy> This is so *last year*:
Well, we all know that Betsy has already written about VW ads, including TSO, There, and 2L:
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/04/advertising_and.html
So I think Ren was just pointing out more VC money being thrown at this type of thing and implicitly wondering when we might have immersion-breaking effects at some point, which is something Richard talks about in his book.
Posted by: greglas | Jul 23, 2004 at 07:24
Bruce > If this is how we enjoy our most intimate living spaces, you can be assured that most consumers will hardly take notice as brands become an increasingly important part of virtual spaces
I was going to see that the word I like to see following consumer is ‘choice’, but actually I’d like to see it before i.e. I can choose if I want to be a consumer. OK, most of us live in capitalist societies and VWs are products, so the notion of choice in the consumer sense is embedded into the fabric of our relationship with any VW, but I’d like to keep some of the choices that I have now thanks. I have the choice to hang in EQ where I don’t see Nike armour a la A Knights Tail (yes I do have the special Furry edition), or SWG where I’ve bought into the single brand of Star Wars.
Or to put it another way, you are totally right about homes, so let’s hope we get to escape this some times.
Randy > This is so *last year*:
Hihi. Well yes and no. The big brands in virtual world meme really got its legs last year, though of course it was nothing new then either. What struck me about this deal were two things:
First that we are talking dynamic placement not simply putting up patty-stalls, so the very latest patty-meal would be featured or maybe in different areas different vendors would become prominent. In fact all the technology is there to change the view of individual players based on profile, activity and action i.e. text, so if a VW has sold a billboard to a car company I would see a Nissan while you might see a Lexus.
Second, the fact that not one but, count them, 2 VCs have put cash into this (OK, not a lot (one could argue that two VCs for a measly $5.5 mill means that there is not that much trust in this biz model)) means that two organisations seem to have some belief in this. So maybe the industry will start to break into a jog down this track.
Posted by: ren | Jul 23, 2004 at 07:36
Out-of-context Ads would be bad.
But what if they weren't out-of-context?
Why not have meatspace brands advertised in The Matrix Online? Wouldn't that increase immersion?
Why not have retro-styled logos show up in Auto Assault's broken and violent future? Charred and broken 1950s style golden Arches would seem an appropriate set piece.
It's all a matter of context.
Posted by: weasel | Jul 23, 2004 at 08:47
I'm getting the strangest sense of deja-vu here ;)
Advertising in virtual worlds can take many different forms including contextual ads, product placements, and entire worlds created to promote a brand (Coke Music, Aero House and America's Army being just a few examples of the latter.)
Looks like Massive Inc. will be involved in the product placement approach within the gaming worlds. IMO the least interesting and most annoying approach. But the annoyance factor also depends in large part on which types of games will be targeted. I really hope we don't start seeing contextual ads within the fantasy/sci fi worlds.
Posted by: Betsy Book | Jul 23, 2004 at 09:02
Me>Out-of-context Ads would be bad.
Weasel>But what if they weren't out-of-context?
Then they wouldn't be out-of-context ads
>Why not have meatspace brands advertised in The Matrix Online? Wouldn't that increase immersion?
I've no problem with in-context ads. Obviously they'd be more persuasive if not only did you see the ads for Hershey Bars but you could (in context) go and buy some. As background colour that makes sense for the genre, sure, they're OK.
In the olde days, computer games used to have to pay advertisers to use their brands. If you wanted a sports ground to feature realistic marketing boards, you had to pay to have those boards show RL brand names.
How times change.
Richard
Posted by: Richard Bartle | Jul 23, 2004 at 10:24
Nathan> It may be a little different if, exploiting the mechanics/narrative of the world
Hi Nathan, I have no doubt that we will soon see a number of ad companies that get the formula very wrong, that said, I don’t see any evidence being presented here that Massive has done anything but raise another round of funding.
Ren> Or to put it another way, you are totally right about homes, so let’s hope we get to escape this some times.
No guarantee here, but the gaming industry has been fairly good at offering choices. My guess is that we will always have the ‘Natural Park’ worlds that are fairly ad free. In most other industries, ads introduce another business plan variable which has a tendency to increase the number of companies in a market, thus increasing choices.
That said, I’m sure there is a baseball fan or two that would prefer a baseball park (uniform) without all the ads. I’m sure there are movie fans that would prefer watching DVDs without the previews. And, TIVO isn’t popular just because it allows people to time-shift programming.
At the same time, the economist part of me has to question the logic behind statements that assume that industries can make more money by making more consumers more upset. Yes, I understand that putting previews in DVDs makes consumers upset, and putting previews in DVDs makes companies more money, but to then assume that this is clear evidence that companies make more money by making consumers more upset is to ignore many of the balancing mechanisms built into modern-day economies, like competition, and consumer’s innate ability to make very complex cost/benefit calculations. Just to belabor this point, if you ask a consumer if they prefer ads in DVDs or no ads in DVDs, then yes, they may say ‘no ads please'. But, this is like asking a consumer, 'would you prefer a car that takes gas, or a car that doesn't take gas?' On the other hand, if you pose the question more accurately aligned with market mechanisms, then I think the question might be “would you prefer cheap DVDs with a few ads, or more expensive DVDs with no ads” or “would you prefer that the industry produce lots of DVDs with a few ads, or fewer DVDs without ads”. My guess is that a consumer or two may prefer a greater number of DVDs or cheaper DVDs, even if it means a few ads.
My guess is that this same consumer may be answering this very same question similarly across many industries, including sports, clothing, cars, cable tv, travel, etc, etc, etc where consumers tend to prefer increased choices, or decreased prices with ads. The question then becomes what about VWs would make them exempt from a consumer preference that holds true in so many other industries?
If a few ads are the difference between more VWs staying in the black and not staying in the black, or the difference between VWs costing $15/mo. and costing $5/mo., again, I’m not so sure all consumers would be so quick to shake their heads when an ad company raises a little money.
-bruce
Posted by: Bruce Boston | Jul 23, 2004 at 10:41
Bruce,
I agree with your logic, but there is no indication that the "savings" will be passed to consumers.
Moreover, pricing can be structured over time to appear that consumers HAVE to take the better of the two options you described.
For example, previews and advertising that appear in movie theaters may keep the price of movie tickets down, but consumers just see the increasing ticket prices.
If there is a general decrease in monthly subcriptions due to ongoing support of in-context ad dollars, then I would applaud the development.
However, it is in the best interest of business owners to improve their profit margins. So, I'm a bit cynical.
Frank
Posted by: magicback | Jul 23, 2004 at 11:21
At first I would jump and say that I hate this sort of thing. But once I give it some time I don't know that it would bother me nor do I think it a bad thing. I'm already bombarded with advertising at every turn anyway - this isn't that revolutionary and won't affect my gaming in any way.
Plus on the business side, I appreciate the extra revenue that it can bring a company. I really start liking the idea when I think about the fact that this sort of revenue could probably save a project or game that I like.
To use Motor City Online as an example... what if this sort of marketing was placed into MCO and made that a more profitable venture? I can think of endless marketing opportunities for that crowd, and if this influx of capital makes it a viable product, then so much the better.
Posted by: Will Leverett | Jul 23, 2004 at 11:42
Colour me paranoid:
The scene: A plush office in SF, view of the mist rolling over the Golden Gate, VC sits behind his desk trying not to look like he was in banking, Aspiring VCs enter and sit.
VC: take a seat young MMO designers
Aspiring MMO: so we have this great game we just need to get out of the door: immersive quests, we’ve got over MUDflation, cracked the casual / hard core player balance, have way to sort griefing and there is a compelling narrative
VC: nice
VC: and your revenue sources?
Aspiring MMO: 50 on the package, then 15 a month
VC: OK, and?
Aspiring MMO: and?
VC: yeh, and?
Aspiring MMO: well that’s it, player.. subscriptions, people will
VC: So just like the thing those Artefact guys were running
Aspiring MMO: er, well, yes, no, we mean no, well not exactly
VC taps on PC doing Googling TN
VC: and UO:X and Warhammer
Aspiring MMO: yes but you see we’ve
VC: look kids, the people in here an hour ago from Adver-space-online had a deal with Mc patties, were talking with Mc Chicken, AtomExpress cards, Calvin Clean – look these guys had revenue streams up the ying-yang.
Aspiring MMO: But its going to be a great game
VC: are you fricking nuts
VC: geez do you at least have a merchandising deal?
Aspiring MMO: not exactly
VC: do close the door on your way out
Actually, I’m all for commercialised spaces, I hang out in SL, but I also worry when I seen an industry in the state that this one is in, one where it starts to define itself – I guess I’ve read a little too much stuff social construction of technology but it reminds me that blindingly obvious applications of technology usual start off as one of a number of sometimes very interesting possibilities.
OK, I’m painting the extreme picture – but let’s just see where the trend takes us.
Posted by: ren | Jul 23, 2004 at 12:07
Hi Frank,
I’m not sure if I have ever seen an economic argument that said that recent inflation is the result of an increasing level of greed in humankind. Normally, they point to other factors like money supply, etc.
Frank> “there is no indication that the "savings" will be passed to consumers.”
Yes, and no. I guess there are a number of other possibilities. In the case of movies, we have seen a fair increase in the budget size of movies, so it is possible that increased revenues may not result in lower prices. For example, back when movie prices were $5/seat, movie budgets may have been in the $5-10M range, where today you may pay $15 to see a $100M movie. Has the price increased, yes. Has the value decreased? Maybe, maybe not..
Frank> It is in the best interest of business owners to improve their profit margins.
Absolutely! Modern-day economics depends on this. At the same time, if I assume that both the mechanisms of entrepreneurism and competition are alive and well in the game industry, then I’m inclined to think that corporate greed will be kept in check to some degree.
If anything, the internet (and most things closely related) is in a state of hyper-competition right now. The game industry also has other checks and balances that some industries do not, as it often has to compete against numerous industries for people’s disposable income. The Auto industry, for example, has few rival industries. Whereas, VWs are most likely competing against everything from a number of media industries, to a number of manufacturing industries, to a number of service industries etc.
-bruce
Posted by: Bruce Boston | Jul 23, 2004 at 12:20
I don't remember the TSO ads for VW? But anyways, I think we all can learn to ignore these ads. I get what I want, because I research it, and find it's a product that fits my needs. I don't need McDonalds ads, because I hate them anyways..BK
Posted by: Ian | Jul 23, 2004 at 13:41
Bruce> then I think the question might be “would you prefer cheap DVDs with a few ads, or more expensive DVDs with no ads” <
The problem I have with that formulation is that, to my way of thinking, the ad supported DVD costs the consumer far more than the no ad version. The apparent cheapness of the advertising supported media comes from the additional costs being randomly distributed to consumers. And thus relies on “out of sight, out of mind”. I once did a study comparing the actual costs of subscriber and advertising supported versions of a newspaper I worked for. The subscriber version cost the consumer about $1, the advertising supported version $3. But of course $2.50 of the latter cost was distributed randomly about town to various cash registers. So the direct cost of advertising supported version looked cheaper.
I think the current costing system is rather insane, in the technical sense of being dangerously out of touch with the underlying reality. Only counting costs that immediately hit your pocketbook can lead to very dysfunctional decision making. Only counting immediately visible costs worked great when we were hunter/gatherers on the Veldt, but in a world spanning industrial civilization it strikes me as very risky. Most of our thorniest problems involve the cumulative effects of small contributions from massive numbers of people. The point is beginning to be accepted for environmental costs, but I think it needs to be much more widely applied.
My current great hope is improving search engines. Then I will be able to buy both the ad free DVD, and the unadvertised pizza, at a considerable saving in net cost. And of course the ad free MMOG.
Posted by: Hellinar | Jul 23, 2004 at 19:21
Will Leverett> To use Motor City Online as an example... what if this sort of marketing was placed into MCO and made that a more profitable venture? I can think of endless marketing opportunities for that crowd, and if this influx of capital makes it a viable product, then so much the better.
I agree, sponsorship support and in-context ad would have enhanced this community.
Bruce Boston> I’m not sure if I have ever seen an economic argument that said that recent inflation is the result of an increasing level of greed in humankind. Normally, they point to other factors like money supply, etc.
I am not making an argument that recent inflation is a result of increase greed in humankind, but it is intersting that both $15m and $300m budgeted movie today will still cost around $10 at the ticket line. Cost averaging perhaps?
Bruce Boston> At the same time, the economist part of me has to question the logic behind statements that assume that industries can make more money by making more consumers more upset.
Market forces will squeeze profit margins, but the long-term stickiness of MMOs and the added profits makes the completely detached business suits see green only.
This area is where I am more cynical. Players of MMORPG (the treadmill kind) have a higher threshold for pain than most. Also, in no time, there will be wild conspiracy theories about a competitor developing an innovative system that provide unobtrusive subliminal marketing message.
Where's evil marketing ren?
Aspiring MMO: Our MMO will have no ads
VC: no ads, no deal!
Hellinar> My current great hope is improving search engines. Then I will be able to buy both the ad free DVD, and the unadvertised pizza, at a considerable saving in net cost. And of course the ad free MMOG.
OK, I'll have to play the cynic on search engines too with in-context ads. However, I like Google's methods of handling in-context ads.
In conclusion, I personally don't think this will spell DOOM, but it is personally insightful to take the cynically view on the pervasiveness of advertising.
Frank
Posted by: magicback | Jul 23, 2004 at 20:56
I am with Bruce on this one. Sure bad advertising done in an intrusive manner will break immersion and wreck games but that is a management issue. Clever product placement can have a neutral or even positive effect on playing experience just as it does in the movies.
Most people view advertising to defray the cost of their entertainment. For consumers this is a good deal overall, its difficult to imagine what the world would be like if everyone had to pay directly for the entertainment content they consumed.
My television is subsidized by advertising, my magazines are subsidized by advertising, my movies are subsidized by advertising why not my games?
Posted by: Tom Hunter | Jul 24, 2004 at 10:35
AO added ads for Alienware computers and Alien Invasion (their next expansion) in last week's patch.
The billboards have been around for years and are easily ignored. The only difference is that they're now being used to advertise non-game stuff (i.e. Alienware) instead of in-game products or fan web sites, etc.
So far the complaints have been weak. But I suspect there would be alot more complaints from a computer ad billboard in a fantasy game. In fact, advertising may have the unexpected effect of pressuring developers to make modern or near-future games instead of fantasy...
Posted by: AFFA | Jul 24, 2004 at 11:45
Tom Hunter>My television is subsidized by advertising, my magazines are subsidized by advertising, my movies are subsidized by advertising why not my games?
Why not your blogs?
Richard
Posted by: Richard Bartle | Jul 24, 2004 at 12:20
Richard,
In fact they are. Every time anyone who makes thier living from games posts here they increase their chance of bieng found by someone who might pay money for their expertise.
I am not sure I would call the time spent to write an intelligent post advertising but I am certain its marketing.
And like much of the other advertising/marketing in the world some of its intelligent and some not.
I understand that the conversation is often interesting and thought provoking and that drives people to post as well but it does not change the fact that there is potential economic benefit as well.
Posted by: Tom Hunter | Jul 24, 2004 at 14:35
AFFA, I caught those billboards when I logged into AO last night. It freaked me out, consider this thread, but at least it was sort of contextual so I was able to forgive it.
Wonder when we start seeing Blade Runner-style advertising blimps blaring out commericals?
Posted by: Young Freud | Jul 25, 2004 at 01:13
Tom Hunter>In fact they are. Every time anyone who makes thier living from games posts here they increase their chance of bieng found by someone who might pay money for their expertise.
Those would be "in context" ads, though, which are less offensive than out-of-context ads (and, indeed, may even be experience-enhancing).
An ad for the movie "I, Robot" stuck at the top of a thread would not be so acceptable (even if that particular movie takes product placement to new levels). More importantly, neither would a static ad for, say, My Tiny Life. Fine if we get to discuss it, but not fine if we don't.
Richard
Posted by: Richard Bartle | Jul 25, 2004 at 05:11
I finally got some time to sit down and write a proper response to this thread.
The social virtual worlds are generally more amenable to advertising because there is no master narrative to interrupt and the magic circle is more like a magic dotted line. Still, that doesn't mean everyone in social virtual worlds welcomes a complete saturation of ads. Most of the protests against ads occur when they intrude into either the public commons or as unwanted additions to private property.
The Intel logos that flash up on the sims' computer screens in TSO are annoying because players have no choice in the matter and they are basically in-game banner ads. The logos appear every few seconds when a computer is used by a sim. I hope for EA's sake they structured the deal to be compensated for each ad impression but somehow I doubt it. This type of in-world advertising drives me crazy not just because it's annoying as hell but also because it's the least creative way to go about it.
The McDonald's kiosks are slightly different because each house owner has a choice about whether to purchase a kiosk for his/her home. When they were first released most people bought one as a novelty item but I never saw anyone actually "eating" at one. Just many jokes about whether eating a virtual big mac would make your sim fat.
The Levi's and Nike ads in There never inspired any serious protests that I'm aware of and I believe it's because they were integrated properly into the world. The branded clothing wasn't forced upon anyone and the branded shopping pavilions were kept in separate clearly marked areas so that those who were interested could buy them but those who were not could ignore them. Now, I don't know how successful each campaign was in terms of members purchasing the branded clothing but I can tell you I've seen quite a few avatars running around in Levi's jeans and very few in Nikes. I suspect this has something to do with There's audience connecting more with one brand and not the other.
Any vw company considering an in-world ad/branding campaign should first make sure the brand is a good match for its user base. And more importantly, should not dilute their own brand by going overboard when promoting a partner's brand. I thought the iVillage island in There had great potential for both parties. Bruce, I see the island still exists but I assume that deal was called off with There's change in direction?
Now here's an example of a completely marketing-driven world that will make everyone's hair curl. Recently I've been checking out another flash-based world for teens for potential inclusion in my site called Dubit. Dubit is based in the UK and not only does it incorporate in-world advertising, the entire Dubit concept seems to based on delivering ad messaging and loyalty marketing programs to teens. There's not even an attempt at subtlety here. The web page itself is saturated with ads. Then when you go into the Dubit world you are forced to watch a splash ad before you can enter each room. Meanwhile, a separate ad flashes continuously in a banner space at the upper right of the screen. Plenty of socializing takes place in Dubit but the entire experience is so dominated by marketing messages that it's clear members are viewed more as potential customers of offline products than customers of Dubit. To give you some idea of the extent, I tried to enter the "Pizza Hut" room (!) but was forced to wait and watch a promo for the movie "Confessions of a Teenage Drama" queen before entering. Now that's bad!
Posted by: Betsy Book | Jul 25, 2004 at 10:48
Betsy – whoa, what a link.
Two things that grabbed me by the throat: Dubit active members: 284,789
Then the dubit ‘insiders’(www.dubitinsider.com):
Insiders are chosen from the cream of the crop of the informers. As an Insider you get to represent the brand on the street and get loads of freebies. Insiders are the latest in 'gorilla marketing' (don't worry no hairy fancy dress get-up is involved) - you are part of an exclusive group of teenagers that has access to new products, new clothing ranges, new music and loads more - all before anyone else even can think about getting their greasy mitts on them!
Insiders represent their brands on the street in a variety of different ways. for example;
Now when it says ‘town or school’ are we talking virtual or real?
If virtual, well there’s a game! If real, well there’s incitement to criminal behaviour.
FYI The current teams are:
Posted by: ren | Jul 25, 2004 at 16:43
Betsy > I've seen quite a few avatars running around in Levi's jeans and very few in Nikes
Have Nike done a full range or just shoes?
If not it might just be that avi Jeans are a lot easier to show off than avi shoes - so more desirable.
Posted by: ren | Jul 25, 2004 at 16:47
Re: Dubit
Every once in a while, I am thankful that I had no money as a teenager.
Posted by: AFFA | Jul 25, 2004 at 19:57
Tom Hunter> My television is subsidized by advertising, my magazines are subsidized by advertising, my movies are subsidized by advertising why not my games? <
To see your magazine as being subsidized by advertising requires a fairly short range view. If you track the money, it eventually comes out of your pocket. But it flows through a lot of middlemen on the way, so it’s a pretty expensive way to pay for your magazine. I’d imagine entertainment media in a pay directly world would be about half the cost. Don’t forget the magazine with the current system has to pay for paper and ink for both the editorial content, and as much again for the advertising content. Eventually, you pay for that. Of course, without advertising saturated media, it would be harder to find the products you want. But that’s where I think a good search engine would be a much more efficient solution. I don’t mind advertising supported media, I’d just like to be able to opt out. And I’m hoping the Net opens that possibility. Certainly, I will vote with my subscription dollars for non-advertising supported VWs.
Posted by: Hellinar | Jul 25, 2004 at 20:07
You can bet your ^&* that ALL media is only a platform for ads. that is the business and this is why they have "rating". Games are going to be similar. Gladly, we may get our games (or on-line sub's) at a lower rate. In the future I hope it will be like TV (with and without ads, pending subs. payment.
Posted by: GJB | Jul 26, 2004 at 06:22
Ren asked: Now when it says ‘town or school’ are we talking virtual or real?"
We're talking real. And I wonder if the misspelling of "guerilla marketing" is intentional.
AFFA wrote: Every once in a while, I am thankful that I had no money as a teenager.
But AFFA, you could have done this. ;)
I've had my eye on Dubit for about 9 months now but have held off adding them to VWR because the chat part of the site often seems to be down. In fact it's down right now and my efforts to get screen shots of the Pizza Hut room are foiled again.
When I visited yesterday there were 142 members online, most hanging out in private apartments. Teens in the public rooms were *not* discussing Pizza Hut or the latest Hilary Duff flick but rather carrying on with the usual business of flirting with each other.
Another striking thing about Dubit is the way the Dubit Island Map map of the chat spaces conveys RL class distinctions in its geographical arrangment. On the coast there are "high class" beach resort spaces, including "Beach Chillout" and "Marina." This is in sharp contrast to the choices further inland which include "Ghetto" and "Hip Hop Club." Interestingly, the Pizza Hut space is visually positioned with the "lower class" spaces.
Ren also asked: Have Nike done a full range or just shoes
The lineup I can recall included a few pairs of shoes, some shirts and a track suit, both men's and women's versions. Levi's had men's and women's versions of jeans and a jean jacket. Here's a screen shot of my avatar wearing a Levi's jacket and Nike track pants.
Posted by: Betsy Book | Jul 26, 2004 at 08:15
Betsy > We're talking real.
Yikes – I kinda doubt that is legal.
>And I wonder if the misspelling of "guerilla marketing" is intentional.
Street spelling or did they just take lessons from me?
> Here's a screen shot of my avatar wearing a Levi's jacket and Nike track pants.
Mmm interesting shrooms, I wonder where they got inspiration for those.
Posted by: ren | Jul 26, 2004 at 09:29
Ren> If not it might just be that avi Jeans are a lot easier to show off than avi shoes - so more desirable.
This is basically the crux of the issue. The Nike shoes sold very well, but it never really seemed that way when we were walking around in-world. We did a number of studies and basically came to the conclusion that due to the camera angles, shoes were very hard to see, or show-off. We also found a number of other little tidbits in those studies. For example, the Nike shoes made you run faster, and as such there was a very strong correlation between Nike shoes and Paintballing. Paintballers with higher skill ratings were more likely to be Nike Shoe wearers. Another fun stat that we found was that in clubs whose leader wore Nike’s, a noticeably higher than normal percentage of the club members also wore Nike’s. This held true for both social and sport clubs. It also held true for Levi’s products, and several of the stronger member-developer brands.
Betsy> Bruce, I see the (iVillage) island still exists but I assume that deal was called off with There's change in direction?
In the case of Nike and Levi’s our agreements have expired and I don’t think either side is pursuing a renewal at this time, I think mainly because There isn’t staffed properly to keep these campaigns fresh. Overall though, I think they were very successful campaigns for both sides, and I was happy they lasted as long as they did and we now have some very strong data to build from. However in the process of closing these campaigns, the products have been removed from the catalog and I’m in the process of removing the various kiosks from the 3d world.
In the case of iVilliage, I have been trying to get permission to auction off the three properties on iVilliage island, as they would bring in several hundred US$ each, but have been asked (by upper management) to ‘please wait’, but my guess is that it would be easy to rename the island if needed.
-bruce
Posted by: Bruce Boston | Jul 26, 2004 at 11:36
Hellinar> To see your magazine as being subsidized by advertising requires a fairly short range view. If you track the money, it eventually comes out of your pocket.
Ok, it's Monday so lets have some fun. How about this...
'To see some magazines as not being subsidized by advertising requires only a medium range view. If you track the money, ads in magazines eventually saves you money both on magazines and on what you are buying.'
There, that sounds like a fun one, so here goes.
1) The advertising costs of a business are an assumed cost, and for the most part considered part of the cost of doing business. As such, most companies/business divisions/product lines have an predetermined periodic ad budget.
2) From what I have seen rarely is this budget based on the actual cost of advertising, more often it is based on either a) the typical effectiveness of advertising, or b) a percentage of sales, or c) some other cost/benefit factor.
3) If a business is spending money on magazine ads, it is most likely because the effectiveness of those magazine ads is higher than other types of advertising and/or marketing.
4) Businesses that use magazine ads because they are more effective than other types of ads actually save money and/or increase sales by placing ads in these magazines.
5) The money obtained by the magazine company through the sale of these ads is often used to subsidize the printing, distribution and sales of the magazine leading to a higher readership.
As such, I think it's fair to say that, in some cases, magazines are actually subsidized by ads which either save businesses money or increase their sales or both (and increase national litericy...'hmmm).
What I am not sure of is if these savings are directly passed on to the consumer. A fair percentage of all companies use market based pricing which more often sets prices based on what the market will bear and less often on changes in business costs. But, as I mentioned above, in markets where entrepreneurism and competition are alive and well, costs effect supply which directly effects the market price of a product.
-bruce
Posted by: Bruce Boston | Jul 26, 2004 at 13:42
I'll jump in and say:
I think many users of the internet are fans of disintermediation, meaning they like to bypass all the intermediaries and go to the source.
Also, initial resistance to the "encroachment of agenda-based message" should be expected. After all, we now accept brand logos on sport jersies and movies strongly supported by product placement like The Terminal.
Personally, the most distrubing trend in the movie business is that the cost of marketing may cost more than the production.
For MMOs in the near future, will the cost of marketing and the revenue from ad placements exceed the cost of operations and revenue from usage?
Frank
Posted by: magicback | Jul 26, 2004 at 20:57