W-Hat is Emergent Gameplay?

A meta-guild -- i.e., a guild with a presence across a number of virtual worlds and/or MMOs -- allows a group to share their experiences of gameplay in various environments, and eases the process of traveling among such worlds for the individual. I don't play CoH/V, but members of my EVE Online corporation do. As a result, I have a good idea of what the game is like (a better idea than I can get from the press), and I'd have an instant group of co-adventurers should I decide to join, a group which would provide me with tips and aid to speed the process of my getting acclimated (and grinding out my time there).

But just as such groups can serve to funnel information out of virtual worlds to their members, they can also serve to bring information about the group into the virtual world, if the group culture is strong enough. One such culture is that which has arisen on SomethingAwful.com, a Web site devoted to general Internet outrageousness, satire and irreverence of all things . . . well, of all things, really, let's leave it at that.

The rule on SA seems to be, If it exists, it exists to be made fun of. There are some extremely creative minds on the site and in the accompanying forums, and if you can stomach some occasional political incorrectness, juvenilia and scatology, it can be an amusing place to check in. (Try the Missed Connections in World of Warcraft page, for instance.

What fascinates me about SA culture is the way it's manifested itself in the Something Awful meta-guild. The "Goons," as they're known, have a presence in World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Second Life, CoH/V and a number of other games, in most of which they're very active. (There are more than 90,500 users registered on their forums.) In each case that I know of, the edge-of-offensive SA forum culture (sometimes way over the edge) has replicated itself in the native terms of the world in which they're playing, creating what are to me some really interesting examples of emergent gameplay.

In Second Life, the Something Awful Goons are known as "W-Hats," after a forum meme that would get you banned for using the word "what." Members and past members of the W-Hat groups there have been responsible for some of the most outrageous builds in all the virtual world -- including satirizations of the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center and the assassination attempt on the pope. They are also among the most creative and talented builders and scripters in the world, however. A rotating gallery of their creations can be found in the Baku region.

Being outrageous in Second Life is no great accomplishment, to be sure. More interesting to me is the GoonSwarm alliance in EVE Online, which boasts almost 2,600 pilots (or about 1,500 players, by EVE alt averages). While the Goons can't help but hew to EVE's game mechanics, they do so in their own way: they make gleeful zergling suicide runs at enemies and are regularly accused of using exploits to gain an edge. They color as far outside the lines as the game will let them -- as they do everywhere. The in-game profile of one Goon I encountered in EVE summed it up nicely (I paraphrase): "You may be playing EVE Online, but be warned: we are playing Something Awful."

That profile line is very telling: For the Goons, it's Goon culture that comes first, and game culture a not-very-close second. Is this somehow a failing of the games currently available? Is it a mark of how strong the SA culture actually is? Outrageousness aside, is this a desirable condition for a meta-guild? If so, is it something developers could build for or seek somehow to promote? Or would that merely extend the boundaries, and necessitate even more creativity from those who will always seek to bring something more to a virtual world than the world itself could ever offer?

Comments

[Prokofy Neva]

>There are some extremely creative minds on the site and in the accompanying forums, and if you can stomach some occasional political incorrectness, juvenilia and scatology, it can be an amusing place to check in.

Um, I think you mean, if you can tolerate the following, which many of us have suffered in Second Life, which isn't "creative," but just the usual banality of evil:

o destruction of SL property causing actual RL US dollar damage -- destruction because seemingly indestructible virtual property *can indeed* be destroyed when someone invades a group and uses group exploits to edit, dismantle, delink builds or flood sims with prims, forcing builds back into lost and found and delinking them and destroying those not copyable and deleting those not transferable

o disruption of service so that tenants move out, causing actual RL damages in US dollars

o denial-of-service attacks downing the entire grid; this is the cause of a reported FBI case that the Lindens initiated against Plastic Duck and friends

o vicious sexualized attacks constituting cyber-rape; sexual harassment

o horrendous flooding of sims with the awful tub-girl or goatse pictures turned into spewing particle rain, or giant penises, such as was done to Anshe's press conference

o asshole stalker trolling the Internet for my name and avatar linkage, calling up people with that name, then finally calling me at home, and talking even to my child to try to pry information about me

o making an account using my RL info, spoofing an identity

o anonymous, abusive, trolling, defacing of my RL picture, harassment in and out of SL through unasked for teleport offers, notecard spamming, IM spanning.

Shame on you, Mark, for thinking this is just a fun Ludologist thingie to study.

Hell, no.

It's not cultural; it's criminal.

[Michael Chui]

And naturally, instead of learning about criminals, we should just lock them up and ignore them. This prevents crime very effectively.

[Mark Wallace]

I think it's worth examining the two strains of Goonism separately. I wanted to post about the broader issue of meta-guild cultures here. We cover the Goons' transgressions and alleged transgressions pretty thoroughly in the Herald.

As more complex virtual environments emerge, so do more complex griefers, mimicking real life. It is crime, and it is an evolutionary necessity. Certain behaviors are wrong and must be punished, but they will spur the development of the metaverse. I've read before that certain MMOG designers actually dig griefers because they point out the weaknesses in the code. Unfortunately, now there are real resources at stake. What a bitter-sweet sympony.

[Bryant]

Probably worth noting that one strain of the Goons on WoW evolved into the Elitist Jerks, who are among the best theorycrafters in the game. Probably not coincidentally, their expertise is in doing things others think impossible -- they started the "how few can you do Onyxia with" trend with a 10-man kill, and came within 3% of downing Hakkar before killing any of his priests. Coloring outside the lines in a different way.

[fofofo]

Hi! I liked this entry. I'm a goon and former GF/GS member (as well as other goon guilds).

The thing is goon guilds tend to push games to their limits. Who thought newbies could stand a chance against bigger opponents in EVE while losing small amounts or money? Who thought you could actually kidnap mobs in WoW just to spice up the boring PvP? There are lots of those examples and that's the awesome thing about being a goon in a goon guild: you get to do things nobody else did before in MMOs or web based games, thanks to goons trying just to have fun instead of taking games too seriously.

Prokofy Neva I can't believe all those things were made by goons, specially the more haxxor thingies. Are you talking about goons?

[Thomas]

It's good you have fun - as long as your fun doesnt consist in taking away the fun someone else is having.

That's my point of view..

[Prokofy Neva]

Um, I'm not interested in studying criminals further. I've studied them up close for a year. I'm interested in prosecuting them now, thank you very much.

And no, no, no, NO, Mark, I will NOT let you put up this crap about "games" and "meta guild theories" and prettify the ugliness that is W-Hat by forking off to some fun, groovy, Ludology around them. No way. I'm here to remind you that your fun, groovy, Ludology is *based on criminality*. Meta-guild THAT Mark!!!!

Honestly, if you folks had YOUR business destroyed, YOUR real-life pictures defaced, and YOUR home invaded by these freaks, you might not find it as funny and interesting and groovy as you do.

fofofo, yes, Eddie Haskell, I'm talking about Goons, absolutely, undeniably, and please, save yourself the typing, do not start in with the "oh, but it's only a few bad eggs in the carton" and "oh, but don't tar them all with the same brush" blah blah blah BLAH.

No sale. Non pasarant.

Twenty-five banned bad eggs makes more than two dozen eggs and at least one full carton -- not a question of a few bad eggs, here truly. Don't even start.

Yes, they definitely all follow the same patterns, fake deniability gambits, peppering of forums with apologies, distractions, word-saladation, etc. etc. Nope, no sale.

When this stuff starts getting prosecuted seriously, it will stop being a game.

Why haven't you pursued prosecution?

[Prokofy Neva]

How's that anonymous life coming along there dude? And why would I tell anonymous people on the Internet the details of prosecution or not prosecution, in order to make it easier for them to avoid it, hmmm?

[Zlatomir Zarkov]

"...Certain behaviors are wrong and must be punished, but they will spur the development of the metaverse..."

I agree on this, that kind of behaviors will help in development of a real society inside virtual worlds.

[Elle Pollack]

The difference between Goons in SL and Goons in EVE: In EVE, it's legal to shoot back at them. Getting one's ship blown up in EVE is par for the course, pushing the rules of the game is to be expected (though breaking them is frowned on). In SL, however the "rules" are social niceities: bending or breaking those leave people a lot more angry, annoyed or offended. A speculation on why the EVE brand of goons don't push my buttons as much, at least.

[JuJutsu]

Interesting read. The metaguild I belong to is only 1/9 the size of SA but it is great to have guildmates in place no matter what game I would play.

[Prokofy Neva]

>As more complex virtual environments emerge, so do more complex griefers, mimicking real life. It is crime, and it is an evolutionary necessity. Certain behaviors are wrong and must be punished, but they will spur the development of the metaverse. I've read before that certain MMOG designers actually dig griefers because they point out the weaknesses in the code. Unfortunately, now there are real resources at stake. What a bitter-sweet sympony.

I don't see anything "sweet" about it, anonymous take-no-responsibility poster.

Um, I don't buy the extremist line that crime is necessary to develop the metaverse. It's like saying the Black Panthers and the Weathermen were crucial to the revolution of the 1960s and the development of the peace movements around the world, when in fact, they were detours, aberrations, destructive sects.

None of the lefties on this blog would *ever* accept this line of reasoning if we were talking about, oh, robber-barons in the United States in the 18th or 19th centuries being necessary to develop rail or ship lines.

If we said Columbus was vital to developing America, we'd have to hear endless lectures of political correctness.

[Jen Dornan]

I’m going to gingerly dip my toe into this mess and suggest that it is possible to acknowledge that these kinds of meta-guilds are pushing some interesting boundaries within games while also condemning much of their behavior. Barring the kinds of extreme criminal behavior listed, I find the notion that groups of players are seizing virtual worlds across genres and refusing to play the game “as designed” extremely compelling.

On the other hand, while some of these “goons” might in fact be creative minds irreverently exploring the boundaries of modern virtual media, I sadly suspect that the vast majority of them are young kids caught up in the excitement of anonymous aggression. I see SomethingAwful as walking that fine line between witty modern day Tristram Shandy’s and genuine thugs out to wreak havoc for their own pleasure.

[Prokofy Neva]

>I find the notion that groups of players are seizing virtual worlds across genres and refusing to play the game “as designed” extremely compelling.

We all do that, those of us who spend any time in games. Most gamers push around the edges and do stuff that isn't part of the original game plan. But most of us do it without crime or harassment. The maker of Eve can say "Fraud is Fun" with a twinkle in his eye because fraud is part of the accepted gameplay. In Second Life, which isn't supposed to be a game, fraud is a TOS violation that may overlap into RL crime if the amounts are large enough.

The real meta game here, if Mark is willing to study it and if somebody like Cory Linden is willing to discuss it, is what was said with this kind of statement: "certain MMOG designers actually dig griefers because they point out the weaknesses in the code."

It's so obvious that this is the case, and it's one of the severe MMORPG hangovers that Second Life suffers greatly from. The coder Lindens love the griefers, feed them, form the substrate for them to continue, are adulated by them, fete them, and therefore it's hard to imagine any judge in the land ever saying, "Um, and...you think you have a case for a denial-of-service attack when you ENCOURAGE reverse engineering? Hello???" And this attitude of love and respect and *fun* is what makes it so hard to get rid of griefing -- there is always somebody official in charge who is in fact having a good laugh at whatever antics the hacksters got up to, and thinking it's great that they found an exploit (it's part of the secretive culture of both the griefers, the reverse engineers, and LL that we never get to hear WHAT these wonderful bug-hunters found. I've asked this question over and over again, and heard only crickets).

LL's irreverent attitude to this was displayed in spades long ago when they created a "corn field" for the miscreants who were, as Torley Linden inimitably put it, the "white collar criminals". That is, the garden-variety TOS violators who shot people or sexually harassed them or indulged in racist remarks got the old-fashioned boot and were logged out and banned for 3 or 7 or 14 days.

But the smart haxxors who tweaked the code or fiddled around with bots or exploits or whatever were sent to the exotic "Corn Field" where they became media darlings and got to brag to their friends about their coolness.

I always feel like the Lindens aren't really chasing these hackster gridcrashers so much as playing an elaborate red/blue team sort of game with them where they actually enjoy the fight, and like their opponents who make their jobs fun. THIS is the meta game across all games, the elite camraderie of coders who feel themselves superior to civilians, even sneering at their bourgeois behaviours and valuation of things like "property" or "buildings" or "civilization" or "socializing".

I find it gets really damn tiresome though, all this preciousness about what amounts to a gang of juvenile delinquents.

[Cael]

Prokofy:

You seem to be of the opinion that the Internet is Serious Business.

I think it's important to nte that the Goons/SA don't. The only thing they take seriusly is mocking those who take things so seriously that they come across as po-faced shut-ins with nothing better to think about than WoW or EVE or Second Life. SL probably more than the rest since the "It's not a game!!!" crowd are NOT there have fun and actually think they're doing something serious when they are, in fact, just jerking off online, like the Goons.

Your four-page comments are equally, just jerking off. It's not life. Nobody really cares. Grow up.

[Alvis Brigis]

--- Sorry Prok, my apologies for errantly posting the evolutionary necessity entry sans name (didn't post the second one though). Didn't catch my irresponsible blunder until just now. ---

I do not dispute the criminality of many W-Hat behaviors, just as I do not dispute the criminality or many RL crimes. But I would like to reiterate that both do spur structural evolution and antibody development. A destructive / criminal / deviant /griefer element % is built into the human species. Those of us with empathy, morals, values who maintain order rightfully want to reduce that behavior. But, stepping outside of the self and our precious real life resources (not sarcasm), and flying in the face of political correctness, it's obvious that the behavior of robber barons and other resource gobblers and social deviants does indeed spur on the system. Over time, as people evolve in response to such opportunism, society strengthens its defenses and develops new capabilities, transforms.

As VW's and other ICTs increase the fluidity of social behavior and evolution, that allows for a corresponding evolution of griefing and crime. Regardless of how we feel about that, the trend continues. As minds react, and services pop up that counter this deviant behavior, new beneficial innovations akin to virus protection, anti-spam software, alarm systems, etc. also pop into existence. Minus the demand generated by these mini-crises, such reactive innovations may evolve at a slower rate. And that *might* be a really bad thing. For example, what if the recorded natural dynamic behavior (good, bad, ugly) of people in VWs eventually helps us to solve a complex RL virus or other disease faster…

As the sheriffs in the wild wild metaverse step up the complexity of their defense / maintenance behavior to deal with the new and inevitable hi-tech goons, griefers, etc., the broader immune system develops. And, over time, the broader world benefits from and mimics the new solutions that were forced to evolve in these VW chambers.

So I stand by the statement that a bitter-sweet symphony is emanating from these experiments that are now blending into our reality. The sweetness in the equation is derived from the vast potential for quantification / learning at a *reduced* cost, like the lack of physical murder, rape, vandalism, etc.

Your general point is well taken, and I'm on the side of the law. But I believe that one can also learn valuable lessons from costly heinous VW/RL crime and acknowledge that such behavior may cause good, while also condemning such activities. You are right, Prok, in your vehement condemnation of the illegal, resource-burning behavior. Glorifying / allowing such behavior is a recipe for disaster. But it's inevitable that we go down the rabbit hole, and as you are aware, we’re already going there and it is what it is and what we ALL are making of it.

re: LL valuing certain hackers. Your point about the "white collar" griefers/criminals is excellent. It’s interesting to note that this emergent trend is not limited to complex VWs. Just as in RL, those with the skillful hacks get off with fewer penalties and, more or less, are allowed to continue their play in the system. Like it or not, there's much to be learned here as the mirror of SL is held up to the reality of RL and we are forced to come to terms with our natural, instinctual, emergent special behavior. In fact, it may well be key to our long term survival.

[Wolfe]

Its up to the devs to make these types of cultures work within the game without degrading the quality as percieved by other players. In some cases you might need to allow for free server transfers to allow the more "ordinary" players a method of opting out from the chaos which might follow a too large player organisation.

Other constructions such as SL or EVE might have to figure out other measures, which might be difficult.

[Endie]

I was lucky enough to be on the right server in SWG, and to share it with a bunch of Goons (I think it was Lowca?) Frankly, it was great fun: this bunch of people with a shared set of values (strange, weird and perverse, but still values) and a degree of ready-made social cohesion who would puncture every pompous bubble, needle the self-important and generally rile those most in need of a dose of riling.

That said, I was never hugely tempted to join. Until now. Prokofy reminds me, by his very existence, just why Goons are needed. In fact, as soon as I get home, I'm going to hand over my money and stump up for an SA forum account. I'm well aware of the possibility for humiliation and grief that this involves, but really: Second Life is a game, Prok. Just not a very fun one. You're not doing something important. You're not forging something on the digital frontier.

Gnosi se auton. Have a Naked Lunch moment: you're hanging out with the rest of the fabulous furry freak brothers in a glorified chat room with RMT. And I occasionally take a peek at your blog: it is a hilarious and camply-shrieked list of schoolgirl-level offences against you committed by - apparently - everyone who has ever had an SL account, including most of Linden Labs' imaginary million-billion-strong user-base. If you stopped being so easily provoked, you might even find the kiddies pull someone else's pigtails...

[Ian Betteridge]

Cael says:

"Your four-page comments are equally, just jerking off. It's not life. Nobody really cares. Grow up."

But that's the problem, Cael, and the key difference between Second Life and (say) WoW. For some people, SL is a vital part of their life, because it provides a significant chunk of their income.

At one end off the scale are the Anshe Chung's, but at the other end their are lots of ordinary people - students, home workers and others - who manage to make a decent chunk of money. Two students I know replaced their summer McJobs with making stuff in Second Life.

Griefing and grid exploits affect these people's real lives to a far greater extent than they would in WoW or Eve.

[Pete]

Woah. If people start getting prosecuted for in-game behaviour in SL, then it ceases to be a game and becomes just a pile of advertising and money-sucking devices with a battery of lawyers standing over it. If I wanted that I'd go to the mall.

[Prokofy Neva]

Neat little distraction and subversion there, Pete. People are NOT being prosecuted for mere "ingame behaviour" like shooting someone with a pixelated gun so that they don't die, but get teleported home.

No, they are being prosecuted for *real criminal activity in the real world*.

o Bringing an entire grid of 4000 or 5000 servers to a halt -- this is a denial-of-service attack. It's a real-world attack.

o Stalking someone using the Internet is a *real-life crime*

o Destructing of property systematically even if in a virtual world is a crime, no different than the "virtual" crime of denial-of-service

o Identity spoofing -- a RL offense.

You're already revealing your hand as a typical W-hat zealot with your obvious noir, nihilist, and narf-narfing viewpoint, notorious and known to all, that a complex and evolving thing like Second Life is "just a pile of advertising" and "just money-sucking devices" with "a battery of lawyers" unless it is "purified" through "better-world-through griefing" tactics such as you applaud.

The idea that we "need" W-hat terrorism to save us from this "awful fate worse than death" called "having lots of advertising and shopping malls" is fallacy no. 1.

Fallacy no. 2 is that there is "only shopping malls and advertising" in SL, when there is everything from non-profits to education to socializing to entertainment.

This Puritanical screeching about what other people wish to have the freedom to do is really unseemly, and isn't sanctified coming from the extreme left.

The criminality of griefing prevents the constructive development of SL in a civilized manner. As such, it is nihilist, and not at all "beneficial" as the W-Hat idealogues imagine.

[Prokofy Neva]

>But I would like to reiterate that both do spur structural evolution and antibody development.
I really dispute this logic, because it is rooted in real-life dynamics, which are entirely different as far as scale, magnitude, and remedy.

In Second Life or in a game world, we don't have recourse -- we are often helplessly under the thumb of autocratic or even corrupt (see the GM discussion above) powers that in fact encourage griefing tacitly for their own internal reasons.

In a virtual world, we might log off, of course, but we don't have the protections from destuctiveness that we have in RL.

These worlds are synthetic, accelerated, exaggerated, and therefore unleashing the griefing in them in the name of "therapy" and "anti-body" creation is completely uncontrollable.

You could never get away with such nihilist logic in real life, telling the town fathers and school authorities and parents that they need to allow a certain amount of criminality and delinquency for the good of development of both adults and children and the society at large. I don't see why you get a pass to bring this into synthetic worlds where it is far more lethal to the structure of the world itself.

The idea that we are also supposed to sit in games and worlds and suffer batters of griefing in the name of some Greater Glory that someone might be able to apply the lessons to fighting RL disease is just Bolshevik utilitarianism. You cannot do that to human beings.

These worlds are supposed to be better, not just mirrors. They aren't better, if they merely replicate in an even more virulent and destructive form the same forces of real life.

[Cael]

Ian: I guess it removes some of the usual stigma from prostitution. But really, when the carnival moves away, so do the jobs that follow it. Neither SL nor the carnival are Real Life.

[Thomas Malaby]

@Cael: That's an utterly political statement, not one that adds to our understanding of SL (or carnivals, for that matter). Yet again, SL's propensity to provoke polarized reactions gets in the way of good sense.

[Fire Plus Fuel]

Gangs are international, cross-platform, and they usually start off small with acts of vandalism and theft. Wouldn't that aptly describe W-Hat?

[Steven "PlayNoEvil" Davis]

Thank you, Mark.

The discussion of "meta guilds" and "alternate play" / "emergent play" / "griefing" are critically important in online games. Game developers need to consider these types of players and the freedom that the relative anonymity of online play provides.

Is griefing simply emergent play that some folks don't like?

Yes, griefing and online criminal behavior are problems. Yes, it is important to study them. Yes, it is unfortunate that some online games / virtual worlds do not manage these issues well.

However, at the end of the day, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who set up businesses in a Virtual Beirut.

So, all here in favor of ending emergent game play? If not, how does one intelligently manage it?

I await the inevitable griefing (correction) detailed and thoughtful responses.

[Ian Betteridge]

Cael: "But really, when the carnival moves away, so do the jobs that follow it. Neither SL nor the carnival are Real Life."

Tell that to the people who work in the carnival - to them, of course it's real life. What you're claiming is that because SL looks a little like a game, it's of no more importance than a game. That's easily refuted, and I think I've done that.

Griefing in WoW is an irritant, but at the end of the day all it robs someone of is the opportunity to gain completely artificial tokens. SL gives you the chance to make real money, and - if you're good enough - even make a living. That means that griefing within SL natually has more "real world" consequences than WoW. It's not often I agree with Prokofy, but on that point at least she's right. I think her language is ludicrous, and part of a nasty extension of the use of "terrorist" to mean "any criminal who does things that I disagree with", but that's by the by.

[Waxahachie]

Sounds like Prokofy Neva is taking a computer game *way* too seriously.

[Cael]

Ian: oh yes, and Second Life is Real Life to Linden Labs and its employees. Everyone else in that game is basically like those barnacles that grown on whales. It might be a good living but it's doomed eventually.

I don't believe anyone not employed by Linden Labs made a long-term (i'd take 2 years as long term in this day and age) living wage from SL - or better yet, supported themselves entirely on Second Life activity. Happy to be proven wrong, but proof is a fun thing and i, like Clay Shirky, can read a balance sheet.

[Matt Mihaly]

Ian Betterridege wrote:

But that's the problem, Cael, and the key difference between Second Life and (say) WoW. For some people, SL is a vital part of their life, because it provides a significant chunk of their income.

That's such a straw man. How many people make a "significant chunk of their income" from Second Life who also have other income?

Linden's own stats (http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php) say that in December 2006, not even 500 Second Life users managed to gross $1000 in that month. Pretty poor considering they brag on their front page about having "3 million residents."

Magnitudes more is being made by selling gold in WoW, and far FAR more people are making "a significant chunk of their income" (all of it in the case of many gold farmers), so let's not get our panties all twisted about Second Life somehow being "different" because a tiny percentage of their users make a couple hundred bucks a month from it.

--matt

[Onder Skall]

I don't know how I feel about them yet, and as one who has not yet been a victim of them it's possibly improper for me to say anything at all. I will say this: without them, it would be that much harder for us all to put things into context.

We all tend to be a little sensitive or sensationalist about things. When somebody takes a giant dump on our object of worship we get the option to either freak out or laugh about it.

Personally, I'm of the mind that the second is healthier.

Punishment does not alter behavior. 1% of the US population is in prison. Is crime gone?

Smarten up. Punishment is mere spite without any real interest in a solution.

[Pete]

Prokofy, in reply to me:

"You're already revealing your hand as a typical W-hat zealot with your obvious noir, nihilist, and narf-narfing viewpoint, notorious and known to all, that a complex and evolving thing like Second Life is "just a pile of advertising" and "just money-sucking devices" with "a battery of lawyers" unless it is "purified" through "better-world-through griefing" tactics such as you applaud."

Bloody hell. I am not nor ever have been a somethingawful member, "goon", "w-hat" or suchlike. I don't have an SL account either. Stop throwing accusations around. Clearly I hit a nerve by being cynical and jaded about commercial online activity.

None of the stuff you complain about is new or in any way limited to Second Life. I'm a email administrator and I have to devote signifigant human and computer time to the tide of spam that comes my way. I used to use USENET, also an open sewer of spam, disruption, trolling, aggression, impersonation and defacement. This stuff happens all the time, and the authorities can basically only put a very small dent in a very small corner of it.

Also, merely impersonating someone online is not a crime. It's only a crime if it's done as part of a fraud, or it breaks your local computer security laws.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done about these people, I'm just saying that bans are appropriate and attempting to get them prosecuted is both an overreaction and a waste of time.

[Pete]

And while I'm here, to "" above:

Punshment can alter behaviour. People in prison are not committing crimes. People banned from an online game can't grief in it (although it appears that the really determined can still grief outside it).

[Mark W]

Well to try and get back on topic, there is actually a lot to learn from the Goon's and their meta guild.

They are a presence in almost every big MMO, but all Goon guilds are not equal. In Eve for example, where I know them from, they're a major political force who up until recently were looked down upon by most of the big players. But they're now the biggest single alliance in the game due to their skill in injecting massive amounts of new players into the game regularly and getting them involved straight in the heart of the PvP side of the game.

I'd pay good money to hear their leaders collective experience of how to organise a group of players that big into something cohesive. And what kind of tools they find useful in doing so. For example in Eve they use Teamspeak exclusively because Ventrillo can't handle the stress, despite the lower sound quality.

Also in Eve as far as I know they've never harassed and griefed anyone close to the level Prokofy describes, probably because the game mechanics exist to channel them into the PvP side of the game. Which they fling themselves at with enthusiasm as they enjoy upsetting the status-quo anywhere and everywhere.

Are there any other meta-guilds this size or close out there that we could compare them to?

"People in prison are not committing crimes" ... uh, no, but they're that much more likely to come right on back and re-commit them. Was prison a solution in that case?

Likewise, banning in a world of free alt accounts is like putting a great big "kick me" sign on the SL universe.

Why don't we... I don't know... try something else besides flipping out and trying to smash the offending force away? It's fun to kill things in games because it's RIDICULOUS to think that problems are solved in the real world that way!

[Ian Betteridge]

Matt writes: "Linden's own stats (http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php) say that in December 2006, not even 500 Second Life users managed to gross $1000 in that month. Pretty poor considering they brag on their front page about having "3 million residents."

Considering, though, that peak concurrency is only 30,000 that 500 looks a lot better. Plus don't forget that underneath that 500 there's a lot of people making in the $100-1000 USD range. Now that might not be a lot to you, but to some people it's a decent chunk of change. Like I say, I have personal experience of people for whom SL has replaced McJobs. For a virtual economy that's really only hit its stride in the past year, that's not bad going.

"Magnitudes more is being made by selling gold in WoW"

This is something of a red herring, given that selling gold in WoW is explicitly against the ToS. That, incidentally, is another reason why SL is a service in the same vane as the web, and not a game.

Mark W says: "I'd pay good money to hear their leaders collective experience of how to organise a group of players that big into something cohesive."

If there's one thing the above discussion has proved to me, it's that goons aren't cohesive. The comment by fofofo where he/she doubts that goons could be responsible for the griefing she has had shows that. The behaviour varies not just because of the "rules of the game" and what the game mechanics let them do, but according to the reaction to them and the individuals involved.

[Mark Wallace]

> Mark Wilkin: "I'd pay good money to hear their leaders collective experience of how to organise a group of players that big into something cohesive."

Thank you, Mark, this was just the point of the OP. My feeling is that their leaders don't need to do anything to organize them; what organization exists grows naturally out of the strong bonds that have formed on the forums, which in this case are somehow bonds of culture, not friendships struck. (Could some sociologist come in here with some technical terms? Also: The question of how to manage a large alliance in EVE is a different matter.) What I'm fascinated by is that their forum culture seems to be strong enough to be a cohesive force no matter what game they enter. And this is true across hundreds (thousands?) of people across maybe a dozen games or more. Why is that?

[Nick]

I think griefing in social games is great. The only reason I play online games, and I don't play them often, is to get interactions in the game environment that I can't get from a computer. If it makes the game better, or more interesting, or shows me something new, or gives me a chance to "meet" new people, then great. If it ruins the game, then I turn it off and look for a better one or do something else.

I think Prokofy is complaining about actions that fall into three categories:

In the first category are actions in the game which are possible given the software of the game (or virtual world), and do not violate any user agreements or applicable real world laws, but may violate the spirit of the game or some other ethical standards. These are the "groovy" exploits that make games playgrounds for emergent behavior or uncivilized cesspools of 3d animated genitalia and failed virtual businesses. Other than feeling angry, offended, sad, bitter, or whatever, Prokofy shouldn't have a problem with these things or any legal recourse to stop them because users of the games consent to the rules, choose to spend time and money on them, and have the right to quit the games at any time they want.

In the second category are actions in the game or the real world which change the way the game operates by hacking the code, slowing or crashing a server, tampering with other people's accounts, etc. The legality and ethics of actions in this category would have to be judged case by case. Game designers and server owners should take whatever technical or legal steps they can afford to protect their products from harm, and users should be careful about paying for software that may perform unsatisfactorily or dangerously. If those things are accomplished, then attempting to harm people's servers would be both illegal and hard. On the other hand, its possible that the benefits of allowing public tinkering and debugging in an open source or somewhat exposed system could outweigh the risks of damage from malicious hackers. It's good that Prokofy recognizes the harm done when servers are disrupted or crashed by hackers, just as it's good that society recognizes the harm done by skate boarders grinding up publicly owned benches and railings or doctors carving their initials on people's livers. The free market solution to the problem is to charge more for games and spend it hacker-proofing the servers. The policy solution is to enact and enforce anti-hacking laws until the cost of enforcement outweighs the benefit of decreasing hacking. After that, Prokofy can still try to convince hackers not to hack.

In the third category are actions in the game or the real world that do violate real world laws, in other words, crimes. I wish Prokofy the best of luck in prosecuting the creep that found his/her info online and talked to his/her kid on the phone. It's definitely a reminder to everyone that the internet is not a safe place and that we should all be careful with our information.

Prokofy is incorrect to think that all griefing is "criminal not cultural" because there are clearly ways to reduce someone's enjoyment of an experience, even an expensive experience, without being ethically or legally at fault. Athletes don't like to lose, but are considered bad sports if they blame their opponents, the crowd, or the weather. People in the movie theater who are disturbed by others might shush them, ask them to leave, or tell the management, but they shouldn't expect a court to force the theater or the talkers to reimburse them. A kid whose blocks get knocked over by a playmate isn't entitled to have the teacher rebuild the tower.

Prokofy said "These worlds are supposed to be better" than the real world. For a person who uses words like "lefties" and "Bolshevik", Prokofy seems to feel entitled to live in a very safe and controlled environment. I say, go for it Prokofy! Quit second life, or whatever you're playing, take your money and time and sink it into a heavily moderated game with good security, membership screening, or whatever measures make you comfortable, and do what you can to convince people that assets in that game are just as valuable as "real money" in second life. In real life, feel free to withdraw as far as you can afford to go from anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable or might subject you to the little cruelties and inconveniences that we all inflict on each other, or alternately feel free to be as pushy and self righteous with your opinions as you want and get used to people biting back at or ignoring you.

Luckily the world, and virtual worlds, and the people in them aren't ethically obliged to cater to your tastes.

[JuJutsu]

"Are there any other meta-guilds this size or close out there that we could compare them to?"

As of this afternoon The Older Gamers has 12,818 members in a batch of different countries (mostly north america or australia). Nothing like 90k though. It's a metaguild that spans 10 FPS games, 9 MMORPG's, 4 simulation forums and 4 strategy/rpg/other forums. Plus the public forums and in-house member forums.

As the name suggests it's an age based organization (25+ to join) that emphasizes low key fun. There are, of course, hardcore players but the general tenor is relaxed. Definitely low tolerance for violations of EULAs, NDA's etc (the FPS people in particular won't tolerate any speed hacks or anything like that).

Very strong forum culture. It gets reinforced by familarity - I play with people that I've played with in multiple games for several years.

Nothing at all like SA from the description given in the original post except for the zergling rushes. Using 'sploits or disrupting gameplay is a no-no.

You can check it out at

www.theoldergamers.com

[Nobody Fugazi]

Prok continues to describe the internet through SecondLife glasses. Everything that happens in SecondLife has an analog on the internet because virtual worlds are derived from the internet.

Perhaps the answer - if the sky is falling in the manner which Prok describes - is to continue the Luddite conundrum and vex one's self. Or maybe it is to lobby to dismantle the internet.

Everyone who wants to dismantle the Internet, please start with your own computer.

That is all. ;-)

[Bart Stewart]

I'm also curious about the larger structure of SA.

From the descriptions given, I see them fitting pretty neatly into my conjoined Bartle/Keirsey typology of player styles. In their case, they sound to me a lot like the Killer/Guardian type, whom I call the "Manipulators." These would be the folks who find rules painful, whose enjoyment comes from breaking the rules and getting away with it (or, even better, being lauded for it). Whether it's game rules or human social rules, the Manipulators look for ways to twist them -- not so much for serious advantage (like Achievers) as from the adrenaline rush of busting up other people's expectations.

Sounds very much like SA (as described here) to me.

Which brings up the interesting question: Does a group of such individuals impose rules on its members? Here's a group of people whose major similarity is an instinctive rejection of imposed rules, but the general path of social organizations is almost always to generate internal rules as they get bigger and live longer. So how can SA and such groups survive as groups, much less grow, if they're composed of people who hate rules?

My guess would be that there are a few charismatic individuals running the show, leading by example. (In other words, SA probably looks like Charles Handy's description of a "Power culture.") I would further guess that the groups like SA who've broken up have probably done so when a significant number of advantage-seeking Achievers joined up and started imposing internal rules. There's always conflict when a Power culture turns into a Role culture (which nearly always happens to successful organizations as they grow and live longer).

Is this anywhere near the mark? Or do SA and other rule-breaker organizations somehow also break the rules of classic organization theory?

--Bart

[Prokofy Neva]

>That said, I was never hugely tempted to join. Until now. Prokofy reminds me, by his very existence, just why Goons are needed. In fact, as soon as I get home, I'm going to hand over my money and stump up for an SA forum account. I'm well aware of the possibility for humiliation and grief that this involves, but really: Second Life is a game, Prok. Just not a very fun one. You're not doing something important. You're not forging something on the digital frontier.

See what I mean?

[Prokofy Neva]

>we should all be careful with our information.

Just to bat aside that all-to-common little hector/lecture, let me assure you that my private information was always that -- private. It was not put on a blog, given to people, put on a profile, or linked.

What you're underestimating is the power of people to stalk. People who vengefully stalked me first years ago in The Sims Online, were able to follow a complicated set of clues and then match them to other clues because they were malevolent, persistent, and determined. That's not ok. People who get stalked that viciously aren't "careless with their information," they are stalked.

And just because someone can link your avatar's name with your RL name through Google witch-hunting, and then have the nasty determination to call everyone in the phonebook with your name until they find you, doesn't mean that they are now "off the hook" from stalking and you are "careless with your information".

[Prokofy Neva]

>Prokofy said "These worlds are supposed to be better" than the real world. For a person who uses words like "lefties" and "Bolshevik", Prokofy seems to feel entitled to live in a very safe and controlled environment. I say, go for it Prokofy! Quit second life, or whatever you're playing, take your money and time and sink it into a heavily moderated game with good security, membership screening, or whatever measures make you comfortable, and do what you can to convince people that assets in that game are just as valuable as "real money" in second life. In real life, feel free to withdraw as far as you can afford to go from anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable or might subject you to the little cruelties and inconveniences that we all inflict on each other, or alternately feel free to be as pushy and self righteous with your opinions as you want and get used to people biting back at or ignoring you.

I think this discussion is definitely on target because the meta-game of criminally-minded extremists around games it to create networks of griefers who cause real harm. That *is* the game and they play it as hard as they can and *can* play it because there is always a crowd of cheer-leaders and minimizers like yourself to enable them.

People are *are* lefty and Bolshevik shouldn't feel exempt from being called that. And you're blurring many distinctions in your vindictive post, by saying that I'm calling "crime" something like mere petty TOS violations. For example, if someone shoots you in a safe zone, well, put your land on no-push or get a gun and fire back, don't call the police. That's obvious. And that's not what I'm talking about.

I honestly don't fear being called stupid, self-righteous, FUDded, "not on the Internet" or whatever other silly label is thrown at me merely for standing up for basic *liberal* human values that have to do with making an open society. The malevolencies being spawned by all these games and worlds are so little acknowledged and so little studied. Mark isn't interested in studying them. He's interested mainly in Eve Online. The challenge is how to get these SL griefers to go to Eve where they might actually have more fun.

Many people take that attitude that you can never challenge griefers as they will grief you more. As you can see here in this thread, there's at least one person planning to specifically join Second Life just to harass and grief me and engage in his busy-body mission to take down my "self-importance". I think it's a good exposure of the mentality.

It's hard to stand up to criminality. What happens with the conniving criminals of SL is that they endlessly pillory you, mock you, humiliate you, denigrate your points, etc. by posting under numerous alts and nicks. I fear not. I think it's important that someone stand up to real criminality.

[Richard Bartle]

Nobody Fugazi>Everything that happens in SecondLife has an analog on the internet because virtual worlds are derived from the internet.

Not true: virtual worlds predate the Internet. We didn't get a wide-area TCP/IP network until 1st January 1983 - we'd had virtual worlds for 4 years by then.

Richard

[Cael]

Richard:

Interesting thought though - imagine a distributed VW topology...

[Endie]

Prokofy Squealed in outrage:

"As you can see here in this thread, there's at least one person planning to specifically join Second Life just to harass and grief me and engage in his busy-body mission to take down my "self-importance". I think it's a good exposure of the mentality. "

Good Lord, man. I have no interest in harassing, griefing or even mildly pestering you. On the contrary, i think that you are a hilariously wonderful (as well as virtually instantaneous and exceptionally lengthy) addition to any discussion, and I would happily hire you as a blog troll.

My intention to join SA was provoked by your pomposity, but the point is just that they're a bunch of people with finely honed senses of humour who organise well in a lot of games I might play. Stop being such a narcissist and read my lips: I... don't... care... about... your... psychodrama.