Mindark, I’m sorry…

…if you’re unhappy with what I wrote. But accusing me of slander and using scary Swedish mind tricks to make my life miserable is a bad idea. Let me explain…

A couple of weeks ago I wrote a post where I said that Mindark may well be a fine company, but its press releases about Project Entropia (or Entropia Universe as it’s now called) were over the top and worthy of much more investigation than the mainstream press usually afforded them. In the posting I made some observations about Mindark: (1) it has a history of making wild claims about Entropia, (2) at least one of the much-vaunted sales of assets in the world was to someone who has a direct connection to the company, and (3) that its recent announcement about its groundbreaking “Entropia banking card” was not very groundbreaking, coz it was basically a debit card. So far, so bland. I mean, big deal. Public relations is mostly hype anyway, and my beef wasn’t particularly with Mindark as the mainstream media’s inability to exercise any judgment about what is really newsworthy about virtual worlds. When the New York Times gets all breathy about a debit card, it’s time to tell them to get a better bullshit detector.

Mindark didn’t appreciate this posting very much, perhaps because it interfered with the potential press coverage of the AMAZING story that Jon “Neverdie” Jacobs is the world’s FIRST VIRTUAL MILLIONAIRE!!1!1!!

Anyway, shortly after the posting Jan Welter Timkrans, Mindark's CEO sent the following message to one of my bosses:

Sir

I am the CEO of a company named MindArk PE AB based in Sweden. I would like to know how it is possible that an Assistant Professor of Legal Studies and Business Ethics, employed by the Wharton University of Pensylvania. Is initiating and spreading slander concerning our product "Project Entropia".
It is utterly appalling to see his writings concerning a product he clearly knows nothing about. How can promoting slander by an employee be tolerated by a university involved in the education of Business Ethics and on top of that Legal Studies?
Dan Hunter has never even been in contact with our company.
Dan Hunters slander can be viewed at: http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/05/project_entropi.html#more
Best Regards

Jan Welter Timkrans / CEO Mindark PE AB
[...contact details snipped...]

I spoke to my school about it, and we all shrugged it off. People suggested I should blog about it, but I figured that it didn’t add much to any discussion. So, it turns out that Mindark was pissed off with me. Take a number and stand in line guys.

But they just can’t leave well enough alone. This morning their CEO sent the following message to my school, looking for an apology:

Dear Sirs

I am disappointed to note that none of you have answered the mail that I have submitted below, this can only lead me to believe that the slander Dan Hunter is creating and spreading is sanctioned by the institution which employs him. Please answer. At this stage I will be content with an official apology.

Best Regards

Jan

And he sent one to the principals behind TerraNova:

Dear Sirs

I would like to inform you that you are promoting slander by making Dan Hunters slander available on your collaborative weblog experiment.
For your information you can see what I have communicated to Dan Hunters colleagues here below.

Best Regards

Jan Welter Timkrans

And they’ve even reserved me my own little spot in the Seventh Hell of Entropia, where they explain that I am, in fact, the "flimsiest story". (I’m not quite sure what that means, but, like, whatever. Welcome to the internets, where everyone gets to call you odd names).

Now this sort of thing pisses me off. To the point where it’s worth my time to blog about it. It’s not because I care at all about the implicit threat here: that if somebody doesn’t do something about me (in general) or this posting (in particular) then defamation suits will flow like the gentle rain from heaven. One of the great beauties of all those years learning law, practising law, and (now) teaching law is that I actually know what the law is; and perhaps more important, I don’t have any fear of groundless and stupid implied threats that I might get sued.

No, the thing that pisses me off is the use of these sorts of threats on all the people around me, in an effort to try to get me to shut up. (What’s strangest about Mindark’s behavior was that I was planning on ignoring them, since I have a million better things to be doing than writing about them. But they keep on picking, picking, picking at the wound, and, hey, before you know it, it’s bleeding again). I’m sure that there are all manner of organizations which, when faced by dumb threats like this, will actually try to make nice with bullies like Mindark, and tell their employees to shut up, or revoke publishing privileges, or whatever. But that’s not going to happen here. So that Jan Welter Timkrans and his minions at Mindark actually understand that it’s a waste of time to ask my school for an apology (and apology for what? for employing me?) I want them to know that I have tenure there. This means that they cannot fire me except in the most unusual of cases, one of which is definitely not because of pressure from a bunch of Swedish bullies with a penchant for wildly over-stated press releases. And as for thinking that TerraNova might decide to try to shut me up and get rid of me…well, they may want to have a look back to November 2003 and remind themselves who founded this site in the first place.

But if they want to knock themselves out contacting people who have influence over me, in an effort to shut me up, can I suggest the Starbucks barista named Juan who makes my coffee in the morning? I mean if he decides to cut me off from my supply then I’ll definitely consider writing a post entitled: “Mindark, I’m truly sorry…and can I now please have a large caffe latte with an extra shot? And if you also get me a bagel I'll buy your next space station, no questions asked!”

Oh, and to the inevitable Mindark sockpuppets who will post comments below, let me wish you the best. Knock yourselves out guys. Freedom of expression is da bomb, isn’t it?

Comments

[Donald]

Not much of a man, are you Mr. Hunter? A simple apology when one is wrong is all that is called for. Too bad you weren't able to pull it off.

[Jesse]

I can't say anything but '/owned'...
Dan, its good to hear you speaking out about companies trying to strong arm. Keep this place free of that garbage.
-Jess

[Lordfly Digeridoo]

Awesome.

Well said, mate. Companies try to pull this off all the time. Good to see you a) won't stand for it, and b) have the ability to disseminate the incriminating information of stupidity.

[dmyers]

Oooooo.

Dan said "sockpuppet."

***

I, for one, am mapping this onto the Harlan Ellison / Penny Arcade thing, and I will be interested in seeing the [...contact details snipped...] results.

[Lordfly Digeridoo]

Awesome.

Well said, mate. Companies try to pull this off all the time. Good to see you a) won't stand for it, and b) have the ability to disseminate the incriminating information of stupidity.

[rico diaz]

Mr. Hunter, you still haven't stated why you didn't contacted Mindark before your initial story?

[Jesse]

Rico Diaz :
I don't believe that Mr Hunter is obligated to concidering this forum of communication is just that, a forum of communication, not a legal or marketting environment. Your statement is like saying that ever time I mention WoW over lunch I need to contact Blizzard and ask thier permission.

[Amber]

Not much of a man, are you Mr. Hunter? A simple apology when one is wrong is all that is called for. Too bad you weren't able to pull it off.

Still trying to figure out what exactly Mr. Hunter needs to apologize for. ??

Oh also, please let Jan know it's not slander that he's accusing Dan of. It's libel. Go ahead, Wiki it. We'll wait.

[L'Emmerdeur]

This is exactly the kind of behavior one would expect from a company whose product stinks.

A CEO who gets so emotional in his missives to critics is doing a great disservice to his stockholders. Then again, considering the poor PR some of our snow-bound northern neighbors' CEOs have been generating lately, one should not be surprised that there may be additional Scandinavian CEOs in sore need of medication.

I also love the first comment. That last sentence looks like it continues with "Too bad you weren't able to pull it off. Now you must die. Number 2, throw him in the pool with the Sharks With Laser Eyes".

I'm not sure who is weaker, idiots like this guy or the dimwits who give him investment capital.

[Dennis Connolly]

Couldn't say much more, Mr. Hunter. Bravo on a well-written argumentative post; there's nothing to apologize for, as you said nothing wrong in the first place. Entropia and other 'usercreated worlds' -- even Second Life, for all its brilliance -- have been on occasion labeled as pyramid schemes; whether or not this is an example of what leads to those schemes is a question of some merit.

As for the obligatory, already-posting Mindark folks? You're not making any friends here, and when you decide to make enemies in influential places, you find that they can do ugly things to your profit. You're making a blog post into a criminal affair, and directing attention to something that you probably shouldn't want to. You're pressing, and pressing, and pressing -- and eventually Newton's Third Law is going to bite you in the tailbone. Cut your losses, deny, deny, and deny more, and maybe you'll pull out of this one all right. But as it stands, I wouldn't be surprised to see retractions from papers...particularly as nothing he said is untrue.

Oh, and if Mindark's guys intend to level the legal cannon at bloggers, simply on issues of semantics...I would also suggest that they determine the precise difference between 'slander' and 'libel'. It might 'help' them 'in court'.

[rico diaz]

Jesse:

That is missing the point a bit, I am afraid. The problem is that Mr. Hunter makes assumptions that are faulty in his story, stating it more or less like the truth. It's more like a poor man's rhetoric not verifying the facts prior to publishing it. I understand the reaction from Mindark, though. The post of Mr. Hunter today comes off to me as very arrogant.

The basic thing is that Mr. Hunter doesn't appear to know anything about what he writes about, beyond his biased opinions, and that is the problem.

[Mind Booster Noori]

I couldn't find anything wrong in both posts, but if there are "assumptions that are faulty", can you please say them?

[Dan S]

"The problem is that Mr. Hunter makes assumptions that are faulty in his story, stating it more or less like the truth. " --rico diaz

Rico,

You ever read the New York Times? Washington Post? What you describe (though I'm uncertain it's behavior of which Dan is responsible) is daily occurence in the press, here in the U.S. and abroad. In England I guess the press can be sued, but in the U.S... faghedabouttit. It's a little novelty our antecedents penned into our constitution (even if it was a second thought).

And, yes, honorable men do (unlike the press) apologise when they err, but in this case you have failed to convince Dan (or most of us) that he has erred.

Make your case if you like. This is an (mostly) open forum. Facts, citations, links all would be interesting.

Personally, I think you're milking the old "any publicity is good publicity" cow raw. And that aphorism is a truism at best. There IS such a thing as bad publicity, and you are practicing it.

[trees420]

In this current age of "I'm mad, can't do anything about your opinion so I'm suing you" lawsuits I think that it is commendable that you are standing your ground against this BS. I can't even understand how an opinion is libelous anyway...

[Steven Davis]

The best defense is the truth.

If Mindark wants to refute these charges, refute them. I am sure Mr. Hunter would happily make a correction and apologize if any of his statements were shown to be in error. He raised a number of legitimate issues that Mindark should be able to easily, quickly, and factually dispense with.

From all appearances, Mr. Hunter did a thoughtful analysis of Mindark's publicly available information to put together his article - a reasonable standard for traditional journalism as well as a blog entry.

I suspect most people here are/were intrigued by the idea of Project Entropia. They would like to see a game/world/business that smoothly fuses real money and virtual environment. Korean games like KartRider and Maple Story have taken this route with a tremendous amount of success by using a virtual asset sale business model.

However, the idea that it makes more sense for Disneyland(TM) to sell Tomorrow Land(TM?) than to run it itself may get at the heart of the question that one would have about PE' Space Station Sale (though some of us live in a country where our government sells its own office buildings and leases them back).

[Dmitri Williams]

MindArk, I dub thy product Project Spintopia.

[chabuhi]

Mr. Hunter, I think you owe ME an apology for contributory negligence in causing my eyes to suffer physical and emotional trauma when you did so willfully and negligently (did I say that already) force them to view the name MindArk ... ACK!! You did it again!

[Michael Chui]

The basic thing is that Mr. Hunter doesn't appear to know anything about what he writes about, beyond his biased opinions, and that is the problem.

That sounds exactly like what he says is wrong with the press. Further, he's NOT press. He's a professor, and a blogger (a role which has been slammed over and over for not being as thorough as a professional journalist); it's not his job to step into PE and get a good look at them. It's the job of the press reporting the stories and the company feeding them. If someone says something wrong about your product, you don't try to get them fired; you issue a statement in response where you refute him and show why he's wrong and you're right.

They didn't do that.

What I don't understand is why they bothered to react at all. He basically gave them free publicity by advocating that people look into them more carefully. Really... in reading the thread that instigated it, the general conclusion was Malaby's: Go and play PE.

That's slander?

[Michael Chui]

Bah. I wait a little to post and I get beaten to the punch.

[Edward Castronova]

I have been waiting five years to see the likely source of that stupid threatening phone call get the public tongue-lashing he deserved. Very satisfying.

We academics could have been your biggest friends and allies, but from day one - hell, from BEFORE day one (my survey was about a week old and my paper was months from being written when you, o anonymous person traced to Sweden, called and threatened to have my university fire me) - you saw us as a threat. I guess you were afraid we would publicize your secret scheme to take over the world. Turns out that that would have been a good thing for your business. Lots better than these stunts. Look where you are now, and look at Second Life.

Grade: F. Richly deserved; threats and intimidation don't work in business, and certainly not against academics.

[CBS]

Well, this MA sockpuppet has wondered why their press releases are so-over-the top. Now, having seen some examples of the writing (and thinking) of the CEO, it all becomes clear. He's an idiot. Big surprise, the boss often is.

That said, you are flat wrong about the card being nothing new. As stated elsewhere, the card, the vehicle for the transaction, is not the point. You can *generate* "peds" in the game, assets which you did not have before, and withdraw them (nearly) immediately as actual cash profit. This will be a genuine first (if it ever becomes a genuine reality :^). (Also, your ideas about Jacobs are misplaced, albeit entirely due to MA's own stupidity; but the guy is apparently not an actual paid employee of MA.)

The real story you have missed here is the way MA promotes this hypothetical "profit" angle so heavily, in their PR, at the website, and even rather annoyingly, in-game. The reality, quickly understood by players, is that MA have the stats of the game very carefully rigge... er, 'balanced' so that the house always wins in the end. And not surprisingly, comparison to an online casino is common among players. As well as depressing signs of serious addiction. 10 - 14 hour hunting sessions in compulsive (and expensive) search for the next "HoF" or at least a few good "Globals" are points of pride.

That said, the most common opinion I encounter among EU players is that it's just a fun and inexpensive online game, with a uniquely mature player base, and well worth $15 or $20 a month to play.

BTW, ROFLMFAO @ "the Sharks With Laser Eyes", for real tho...

[Constance Steinkuehler]

Oh, too funny! Apparently legal bluffs and offline threats don't work so well on a tenured legal expert. Like play chicken with a freight train.

I agree with those wise ones above - What's most revealing is that the content and import of Dan's argument is left entirely unaddressed. Companies that claim their biggest selling point as the "ability to convert real world money into in-game money and vice versa" would do well to pay a bit more attention to the content of the discussion here (rather than just policing it with such self-absorption). Honestly.

[Andy Havens]

1. Dan can say what he wants. Even if it is slander or libel, it's incredibly hard to prove those things in court. Which is where you have to prove stuff with neat, precise, focused, legal labels like "slander" and "libel." The only really negative or derogatory term Dan used in his original post was, "bullshit," which he applied to Mindark's PR. Most of his criticism was for the media, e.g.;

"...media sources will buy any story, no matter how flimsy. It turns out that the flimsiest stories of all are about Project Entropia."

That ain't a crack on Mindark, but on the MSM, who are eating up anything with "2.0" or "virtual" tattooed on its ass.

2. I would caution Mindark's folks (or anyone) to be really careful about acusing people of specific crimes, especially through casual contacts with their employers. That is, in some countries and states, I believe, a crime; not sure if I'd classify it as harassment or blackmail. If Mindark truly wants to accuse Dan of a specifc type of criminal behavior, it should be acting through its lawyers and doing so via the court system -- not by emailing his boss. That's so uncool I can't even begin to say.

3. As a marketing schmoe, this is an example of really bad, heavy-handed, wrong-think. You don't go after a fly (sorry, Dan) with a hand-grenade or a Presidential Order. Imagine if instead of complaining to his boss, Jan Welter Timkrans had come HERE and made his case for why the whoziwatzis card was a guut thang.

Yow! The CEO? Here?!! On TN? That'd be so cool! And if the debate was kept clean and fair and all back-and-forthy, what kind of good PR would that have generated for him! Lots of people (me included) would have said, "Neat. Mindark *gets it* about being in touch with us gamer grognard weirdos. They're not just corporate wonks."

Whoops. Went the other way.

4. Didn't have time to say so on the original post, but I disagree with Dan. With a regular bank card, you can't go into a bank, scrub the floors or paint a wall and ask for more money out than you put in. With the Entropia card, you can earn dough in a virtual world and pull it out to pay for a Big Mac. That's different.

5. If Jan Welter Timkrans had made point #4 that quickly and simply, he'd probably have a few more customers.

6. Keep rockin' the free speech thing, Dan. I agree with you 2,229% that the use of spurious legal and pseudo-legal activity in order to get people to "not say stuff" and "un-say stuff" is total crap. And it's going to hurt virtual worlds more than help them, because virtual speech is "easier and slipperier" than real life speech in so many ways. So companies like Mindark should actually be looking for ways to make sure that our speech rights are MORE protected, rather than less so, or else there will be a chilling effect on their own products.

If I'm worried that I or my avatar will get sued for "slander" every time I/he/she/it calls another player's (or the company's) activity "bogus" or "BS..." how likely am I to want to play?

Blogs are a kind of virtual world, Mr. Welter Timkrans. Be careful what you sow...

[Dan Hunter]

Guys, please call me "Dan". We don't stand on formalities here.

Or if you're a sockpuppet, then "Dr Hunter" or "Professor Hunter" is my correct title.

[Derek Worly]

Just to add a little fuel to the "Neverdie possibly being connected with MindArk" fire, this article from the Telegraph was once referenced on EntropiaForums (not affiliated with MindArk) and the thread was quickly deleted from said forums.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/01/09/ccmmorpg09.xml

The relevent quote comes from Jon Jacobs, where he says: "I'm negotiating with the developers to build the greatest virtual nightclub ever,"

That article ran on January 9, 2005. Jon "Neverdie" Jacobs supposedly won that virtual nightclub in a fair and legitimate auction in October of that year. He may have "negotiated" with them, and gone through the pretense of an auction for the publicity, or it may have happened as all the press releases say it did. However, it is not libelous to say that his quote doesn't necessarily jibe with those press releases and makes one more curious about the transaction.

However, and I believe this was part of Dan's original point, the mainstream press seems to have no such curiosity. Hype sells. Pointing that out is nothing to apologize for.

[John Bilodeau]

This is too depressing to be a true story.

I'm hoping Dan is experimenting with some kind of blog-u-drama... Please, let this not be a true story.

[Chas]

Ok, not a lawyer, but it seems that, even if what Dan said was incorrect factually, he framed it properly to show that it was opinion based, or a critique on appearances. There's no smoking-gun factual error.

Now, one pending issue seems to be the employment of Neverdie with Project Entropia. Apparently, Jon's used the title "Project Entropia, US Spokesman" in the past, and that would imply employment... but according to statements from Entropia, Jon is a fan, not paid, and fans are often used to speak out about the game in certain events ( and be compensated for any costs incurred while acting as a spokesman )

The appearance of improprietary is perhaps the most noteworthy: While not necessarily explicitly PAID, Jon's financial well-being is tied to the game's success, and one can see how such ties could develop a tit-for-tat relationship, and that it SHOULD raise some skepticism in the media....

Now, what gets me, is we live in an era where AOL had to drop volunteer forum moderators, because any "perk" given to them would imply employment that must be reported (or payment as a subcontractor). When I was a "battlemaster" for WizKids games, I had to report my "perks" of an occasional limited edition on tax forms. MMO's have dropped many features of player-volunteer-help programs for similar "perk" compensation issues.

So, how the heck does Jon manage to speak for Entropia so much, gain so much in the deal, and skirt the tax law there?

[Larry Kyrala]

I used to have an account on Project Entropia and was intrigued by their claims for some time -- I still pop in to their web site occasionally to see what they're up to.

I partially agree with Dan here, the new (debit)-card has been heavily spun by MinkArk(MA) as a new type of credit card based on a "virtual currency". My own "hype-detector" goes off when I hear this or see the platinum blonde spokesperson for PE. :)

But I can think of a way this could be functionally true (if not specifically true). Dan, what if MA is acting as a proxy service between the virtual microtransactions in PEDs and the regular bank transactions in dollars (i.e. a branded real-world debit-card)?

* deposit real cash into a real bank and likewise make real-world purchases with your debit-card (because it *is* a real world debit-card as Dan says).

* make additional money in PE, (it's likely that MA converts PEDs to "dollars" and deposits it in your debit-card account somewhere) and/or spend your money in PE (it's likely that MA bills your debit-card account for the corresponding cash).

* pay someone else in-game in PEDs (trade). (MA could bill your debit-card and deposit to the other guy's debit card.)

Now, ordinarily all this would create a billion microtransactions (each worth fractions of cents) that no external bank would ever accept on debit-cards. However, since MA is acting as a proxy here, they can put in place delays and controls to allow them to consolidate the daily or even weekly net transactions against balances available to the debit-card. They can even hold onto "fractional funds" virtually backed by their real-world escrow until they sum big enough to become transactions on the real-world debit-card. (someone who has a card could check the fine-print for evidence of such controls)

I don't belittle MA's accomplishment in that area if that's what they've done. It would be a huge e-financial system in its own right. Although not bound directly by the international banking laws and regulations it would be in effect mimicking the transaction systems of real banks for microtransactions in the virtual world and interfacing with real banks via standard merchant controls. (i.e. a proxy bank)

But I'm a bit surprised by the thuggish reaction of MA's PR/Legal team, which I think was uncalled for-- look guys, seriously, you really have to reign that in a bit-- you might let your technical team provide a rational technical response beforehand if you think someone is uninformed rather than yell "slander".

Dan, stepping back from the fray for a moment, what are your impressions of the kind of approach I outlined whether or not it's actually what MA implements? Does it bring us closer to true hybrid economies or still have a ways to go?

[Jesse]

Rico Diaz :
Thanks for the responce, I would like to point out however, that while Mr. Hunter could very well be wrong, we (You and I in any case) are simply a readership of a number of individuals whome speak thier mind, be it flawed or perfect, in a public environment. I am not saying that Mr. Hunter is grandstanding, but simply saying what he thinks. And you must admit, regardless of the medium or the responce, that Mindark as a company has very little to loose from a loose cannon Law Prof. In fact, accusing him of Slander is perhaps worse for thier PR then simply ignoring him and hoping he would go away.
If we were to draw a parallel to Blizzard for a moment; David Sirlin once wrote a rather disparaging post regarding World of Warcraft, as a company Blizzard had two choices, attempt to have it removed from its syndication (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060222/sirlin_pfv.htm) or (what the actually did) ignore it and let it flow into the past as someone who was unhappy about thier game. Mr Hunter is free to express his oppinions where ever and however he so chooses, and I think we as a public need to either choose not to read them or realize that they are just that, opinions.

-Jesse

[Thabor]

It will be a sorry time indeed when people have to apologize for expressing a reasonably held opinion. It is rather pathetic for them to try an silence a detractor using bully tactics. Particularly for a company who's well being is rooted in communication between people.

Please answer. At this stage I will be content with an official apology.

ROFLMAO... I suspect you'll have to settle for being insignificant and largely ignored.

[Jeff Berg]

Wow. Long time reader, first time call... err... commentor.

Just wanted to let ya'll know that this post recieved a mention over at CNet earlier today. The link is:
http://news.com.com/2061-10797_3-6074064.html

As a former journalist and an avid supporter of both First Amendment rights and collaborative online games, I'd just like to offer a bit of support to Dan. Good job on sticking it to those Swedish folks. I was rather impressed to read about how Linden Labs had handled uprisings within its population because it showed their commitment to the idea of the free marketplace of ideas... But MindArk? Please... heavy-handed legal threats and dejected whining is so, like, 1995.

[Chas]

I noticed cnet news picked up the story now. Heh

Larry Kyrala,
The way you lay it out is as I imagine things working also. From that co-branded debit, mindark manages the array of microtransactions. It still isn't anything very noteworthy- it just makes getting money in and out a bit easier... They were tracing the micropayments anyway.

I'd also bet that it'll make any inflationary tendencies even more difficult to manage.

Remember, I CAN earn the ingame currency the hard way- hunting, mining, etc... (and paying a "tax" to the landholders). That game currency wasn't generated by real-world money, but can be pulled out for real world currency just as easily... ingame currency will always be growing faster than the real-world cash deposits that back them.

Either the game developer will have to back the game currency with their own (forcing them to create and sell more landmarks to support the endeavour, potentially devaluing existing properties if done at a rate faster than new player growth will support) or the game developer has to vary the exchange rate (killing the entire ATM system instantly- would you risk losing to a hyperinflating currency? Today, it's $10 ingame to $1 real world. Tomorrow, its $11)

Seems its VERY dependent on getting new business in there to support new land sales without diluting the value of existing land sales.

Maybe the "pyramid scheme" reference isn't THAT far off. (NOTE: That's maybe- not a slanderous assertion, just speculation suggesting that maybe this needs more attention :P )

--
Now, the rusty (it's been 10 years) crim student is getting interested:

As the system seems to stand now we have:
-a fixed exchange rate,
-money that can be easily drawn in and out,
-a history of handling relatively large cash transactions
-plenty of internal game-currency transactions happening within the confines of a "game model" that can muddy the view of where the money went or came from

We've alluded to the risky nature of MMO's used for money laundering. Don't these features make PE a rather valuable resource for just this kind of business?

(NOTE: I'm not claiming that there is anything CRIMINAL about the Entropia business model, or that people are using it for this purpose now. I'm not implying that a Miami DJ/actor to remain nameless got any of his money illicitly, nor that he'd need to launder it for any reason. (the press releases would kinda destroy that motive anyway) Nor am I suggesting that Entropia may be banking on... well... banking laundered goods. It's an observation that the processes in place might make the game more appealing to MMO money laundering than other games. Don't sue me. I'm not a lawyer- and I'm broke :P )

[Sendaran]

I just have a couple of things to say here.

Frankly, I don't really give a rat's ass about what some professor thinks about Entropia or the company behind it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But what I do care about is getting the facts straight.

I don't really care what you call the ATM card, that's not the issue. The issue is that everything that is talked about here has links to news articles here and there and not a single direct link to the OFFICIAL press release that is right there on the OFFICIAL site of Entropia. You are all welcome to bash, flame and do whatever about the thing IF you refer to the official source, otherwise you'll just lose credibility when you go by secondary sources. I have participated in Entropia for 3 years and I've read quite a few press releases and even more articles made from those releases, and oh boy, those articles are almost hilarious to read after the official releases. The press has an astonishing ability to "miss by a mile" when someone gets the brilliant idea "hey this sounds a lot cooler to me than that official thing". It's even starting to seem like all the news reporters of the world are underpaid or something so that they just don't bother to think what they are writing or double check their facts.

And the Jon NEVERDIE Jacobs (yes, his ingame name IS all uppercase for the nick part) case, oh joy... When will people learn to stop beating a dead horse? Is conspiracy theories a new major in universities? That issue has been dealt with several times in the past but people just keep on digging it up and conveniently ignoring the already provided answers. Jon Jacobs was never working for MindArk PE AB (note the correct case here too). He was speaking in some events and he asked MindArk if it was ok with them that he uses the term "spokesman" for the sake of credibility and MindArk allowed it (and it seems that it was a bad idea). He was never compensated monetarily or otherwise for that. Jon has always been very open about his doings and has with great patience and good manners always answered the same questions from these conspiracy theorists and taken the dirt thrown at him with a grain of salt. And if someone feels that there are still questions without answers I'm sure that they can ask them from Jon himself, he's not that hard to contact. No matter what people say, the virtual estate deed to the asteroid space resort was in public auction inside Entropia and Jon Jacobs bought it. End of story.

I'm pretty sure that the exact thing that angered MindArk was how that sale was described. Accusing someone for shady deals is bound to create a reaction.

And I'm surprised how Dan reacted to MindArk's message. Am I the only one that sees the words paranoia and overreacting flashing before my eyes? In my opinion Jan worded his messages quite politely and asked for a response and straightening the facts, which Dan in his arrogance decided to deny, and instead started jumping on the walls screaming "Threat! Threat! They are going to sue me!" I can see no lawsuit threats in the text provided by Dan. And the overall arrogant tone of the whole text really strikes at me. It's like palying MC Hammer's song "U Can't Touch This" over and over again, only this time the artist seems to be MC Hunter with the lyrics "You Can't Touch Me".

And in response to Chas's post with speculations about generating money inside Entropia:
Entropia is a (almost) zero-sum system meaning that the total value of items and money inside the system can never exceed the amount of real money put in by all participants. The "almost" there comes from the fact that almost every item in the system decays when used and a portion of this decay is removed from the system as MindArk's income. The participants then repair these items and transfer some of their money to the value of the item. When the item decays again, some of the money goes to MindArk again. There are also some small fees associated with certain activities, like putting an item into auction. With some small reseach effort this information is easily available.

Now you all must excuse me, as I'm planning to go burn some Project Entropia Dollars and generate income for MindArk PE AB.

[DaveJ]

Remember, I CAN earn the ingame currency the hard way- hunting, mining, etc... (and paying a "tax" to the landholders). That game currency wasn't generated by real-world money, but can be pulled out for real world currency just as easily... ingame currency will always be growing faster than the real-world cash deposits that back them.

Incorrect. The ingame currency total CANNOT grow faster, thanks to the "decay" of the conditions of items. And without it, the ingame currency would grow at an EQUAL rate, due to the way the looting/deposit spawning system works.

[DaveJ]

Oops, looks like I was beaten by 41 seconds :P

[ren reynolds]

Dan pwns

[Richard Bartle]

Sendaran>And I'm surprised how Dan reacted to MindArk's message. Am I the only one that sees the words paranoia and overreacting flashing before my eyes?

No, everyone else is seeing it too, only we see it when we look at MindArk, not at Dan. In Dan's case, it wouldn't be paranoia anyway as MindArk really ARE out to get him.

Although bluster may work as a strategy in some situations, this is not one of them. If MindArk want Dan to apologise, then they'd be better served producing evidence that he has something to apologise for; a copy of a bank statement showing the arrival of $100,000 from NEVERDIE's account would do it.

Even in the unlikely event that we do see such evidence though, I suspect the best that MindArk is going to get out of Dan, if they catch him on a really good day, is "oops".

Richard

PS: MindArk's quarterly accounts are at http://www.mindark.com/docs/reports/Del%E5rsrapportQ1-2006.pdf. I don't speak Swedish, but it looks as if there's room in their 4,731,296kr Kassaflöde från löpande verksamhet ("Cashflow from running activity"?) for the 731,605kr that $100,000 is currently worth.

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad]

Nah, if Hunter was wrong then MindArk is in a win-win spin-doctor situation if the press picks up on this. If Hunter was right then they still get publicity... To claim that MindArk is after him is going too far, apparently the CEO did a cutnpaste job from a comment he made on some other blog and sent that tho his school, a 10 seconds job. What seems odd is that his school didn't reply with a dismissal?

[Jack Thompson 2.0]

"(I’m not quite sure what that means, but, like, whatever. Welcome to the internets, where everyone gets to call you odd names)."
I'm late, but then again, is it ever _really_ too late to taunt people who toss legal threats and/or subpoenas?
Welcome to the internets indeed: "LOL @ Jan Welter Timkrans, j00 r teh PWN'D!"

[Grax]

ShitArk.

[Radu Mirea]

I am curious what exactly Mr. Jan was eager to accomplish with his reply, I find it bad PR.

About the original blog-entry which started the debate, I am still puzzled about some passages there, but I think that having an opinion contraire to Dan Hunter's would automatically qualify me as MindArk sockpuppet.

I will still state it: the "big deal" about that card is that one is able to withdraw funds from Entropia Universe from ATM. Which is a big deal. Having a hobby which eventually get you some financial earnings, in a medium where MindArk are still pioneers, is a big deal. Where is the joke, what is so funny about it? Is similar to any advertising made by all and every company which sustains THEIR tooth-paste is better. So what? Did anybody readed that press release as MindArk would have invented some kind of card? I simply saw that: participants will have this rapid means of withdrawing. Period.

Kerham,
an Entropia Universe player,
who doesn't like neither of the parts in this story

[zadkiel]

Dan, I'm going to sue you for willfully and with malice aforethought causing me to spray myself with my morning coffee, causing damage to assorted paper products and burning my lap! Ahem.

This is the best example of corporate stupidity I've seen in a while. I enjoy playing the actual game, but geez... make it hard for me, MindArk, why don't ya? I agree with Jack: "Dan R teh Pwn4Saur, Jan Welter Timkrans R teh PWND."

[Endie]

I agree with much of Andy haven's post but:

> 4. With a regular bank card, you can't go into
> a bank, scrub the floors or paint a wall and
> ask for more money out than you put in.

Ah, but the rules of the game must be rigged (or else they cannot make a profit*). So the actual process is:

I give my bank 20 quid. They let me come in and clean two patches of floor that they sometimes throw pennies onto, for thirty hours a week. Occasionally I sprint to the teller and bank the cash. At the end of a month of this I see that I have made £6.20 back. They wait a few weeks then let me have my money.

That floor had better be fun to clean.

Endie

-------

*They won't make a profit anyway.

[William]

Hello Sir;

I must say I play said game by MA, and like i tto a degree. I also must say that the reaction of the CEO was a huge waste of 1's and 0's . I am at a loss for words. Why would a CEO of a company even worry about a comment that doesn't damage the "game" in anyway? And the press wont give two cents about this. I'm sure they have better things to report like Iran having enriched urainium, random murders, or even a congressman going into rehab.

[El-Rik]

I do hope Terra Nova isn't going the way of the Second Life forum. Surely we get enough drama there without it spreading. I couldn't care less what you think of Mindark or what they think of you. Take it elsewhere.

[Grax]

"I couldn't care less what you think of Mindark or what they think of you. Take it elsewhere."

No.

[alan]

I could never take a threat seriously from a man named Jan. I think (s)he has Marcia envy.

[RickR]

Yes, the card is just a debit card. Yes, MindArk's CEO is a fool, he could have easily turned this into something putting MindArk and it's game into a positive light instead of creating all this vitriol. Yes, Dan is correct and the media is less likely to do any background digging on a story that is already sensational as they are on something more humdrum, as they might find something to make it less sensational.

I think we've lost sight of something basic here. When you cut through the spin-doctoring, and the overreaction of MA's CEO, and the idea that NEVERDIE is somehow unique for making money playing a game (he ain't), and all the other foolishness... Let's put all that aside for a moment.

Being able to withdraw cash from a virtual world economy is a small evolutionary step forward in VW's, the sort of thing I enjoy reading about on Terra Nova as an academic discussion, one with some really pioneering names putting forward their viewpoints. With all due respect to Dan and everyone else posting in this thread, that is the sort of thing I come to TN to read about.

[Cougar]

'3) that its recent announcement about its groundbreaking “Entropia banking card” was not very groundbreaking, coz it was basically a debit card."'

ROFL, only recently i hear about this story, and still haven't checked your other posts, but may you point anyother MMORPG that has enabled the player to withdraw, "ingame funds" directly from an ATM??

I don't think so... and there aren't many with an Real cash econommy.

"(2) at least one of the much-vaunted sales of assets in the world was to someone who has a direct connection to the company"

Jon "NEVERDIE" Jacobs, is a passionate man, he found in Entropia Universe a game he loved, and he believes in the concept behind it. So he got so much involved with the game that he invested 100k$ into the game because he wanted to help increase the potential of Entropia Universe by bringing a bit of his world into the "game", a "Virtual nught club".
All the rumors around him working for MindArk are unfounded, pure speculation.

NEVERDIE promotes entropia universe because he is a business man inside this virtual world and loves it, not because he is a MindArk employee.

And all the people here bashing on Entropia Universe, saying it is not that revolutionary, can you point a "game" that can compete with it?

I recognise that Second Life is doing a great job competing with Entropia Universe, but still EU keeps it's uniqueness.

Also there are many people that make money playing MMOG's but most of them are doing it against the developer's will and against the EULA (what means "illegaly"), risking being banned.

Many say MindArk wasn't revolutionary, but remember.. THEY WERE THE FIRST.

The only thing here that isn't a "great deal" is Dan Hunter's opinions.

[Joshua_Fairfield]

Thanks, Dan. I really appreciate you going to the mat. There is an increasing trend for companies to use litigation or the threat of litigation to silence constructive criticism.

Interestingly, several states have their own legal regimes in place to stop this: California, I believe, has a law permitting private suit against companies that use litigation to silence criticism. They're called Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation (SLAPP suits).

SLAPP suits have been primarily a tool in the securities context. It works like this: a company that silences all criticism about its products or services by threat of litigation is treated similarly to a company that pumps and dumps. Silencing criticism has the same market effect as making false positive statements.

I wonder if SLAPP suits, or some analog might become a tool in virtual worlds, where the whole "you have no first amendment rights, this is our world" meme seems to have gotten far out of control.