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Apr 15, 2006

Comments

101.

funnt, attacking an enemy's funeral was 100% legit back in the day of WHAT? please impress me with your knowledge of history and spectacular wartime tactics. as an aside, the game may be called world of warcraft, but there is an uneasy truce. no actual war is taking place. so you just try again.

wow, you 'roleplayed' murdering people gathered to commemorate the loss of a friend. that's so cool of you. only, you know, not so much. sorry you can't browbeat people on other message boards into thinking that you guys are teh awesomes!11!!!

i would have loved to ask pagy an obvious question, which is this: why do you THINK people are analyzing (and in your dismissive words, over-analyzing) this event? i'll give you a clue. it's not because they think you r0xx0rs teh b0xx0rs. it's because that for some of us, this boggles the fucking mind. it's because a real death was involved, and every time you open your mouth to say something stupid and thoughtless it looks very uncomfortably like you're shitting on a person WHO REALLY DIED. not some frigging avatar. hey, she WAS worth 19CP, right? you are calling people n00bs for giving a fuck about their friend. what kind of person does that make you, pagy?

the actions and trash talk by the members of serenity now have shown them up to being nothing more than football hooligans in the making. too bad there's no national front in the US. you'd do really well there.

102.

> Aaron Delwiche wrote:
> Ultimately, Serenity Now -- and their defenders --
> fall back on two arguments: (1) "It was OK for us to
> do this because there was no rule against it." and
> (2) We had different goals than the people who organized
> the funeral service.

No, that is just your straw man. I defend Serenity Now because:

1) It happened on a PvP server where PvP is what the game is about. They chose a PvP enabled location for their "memorial." They expected other people to bend to their will and stop playing the game the way it is designed to be played, for some other person's personal, RL reasons. That is selfishness, plain and simple. The people who held the memorial demonstrated absolutely no regard for their fellow players. They could have held the memorial in a non PvP location. They could have made level 1 characters on a non-PvP server to have their memorial. Instead, they chose to try and selfishly impose their will on an entire server. That's wrong.

2) MMOs are not the place for such activities. More often than not, whenever news comes out that someone died, got cancer, committed suicide, etc. it is actually just a false ploy to gain attention, notoriety, or to provide a convenient way for someone to quit/dissolve an alternate identity, or some other negative purpose. I've been running online RPGs for 10 years now, and I've witnessed this first hand from the administrative side (fake suicides, fake deaths, fake fatal diseases, etc. all done to generate sympathy, attention, etc.).

103.

> Aaron Delwiche wrote:
> Andy -- My point is that the mourners were deprived
> of a right to which they had a reasonable expectation.

This is an absolutely ludicrous statement.

On a PvP server, they went to a PvP zone, and expected nobody to PvP them.

That is not reasonable. That is asinine and selfish.

104.

michael,

leaving aside the question of whether or not they 'expected' no one to kill them--and for the record, i honestly think the friends of the deceased girl should have played it safe and held the 'memorial' in a horde city/lowbie zone to prevent assholes from fucking with them--do you also defend serenity now's disgusting comments to the players who actually feel something regarding this girl's death?

that's the part of all this that i find most sickening; that these scumbags are being applauded and e-stroked for mouthing off to people who lost someone they care about. there's such a thing as basic decency, and it's something they appear to lack completely.

i think their thoughtlessness makes them no better than trash--whether ingame or IRL--you may have a differing opinion.

105.

I love it!

106.

Well i thought i'd check back.

No serenity now is not a pvp guild. There are a handful of us that would consider ourselves pvpers, and we roam around and try to engage in world pvp (pvp out of battleground instances) in a group of 5.

Seems byzon still thinks that having an in game grief-fest is not dragging rl drama into a video game, that's fine i guess i wouldn't expect those idiots to wake up and see this rp event as being as idiotic as many other people.

the AIM news article was pretty funny too. oh well byzon, bring up something i haven't already adressed and you can become worth my time


"i would have loved to ask pagy an obvious question, which is this: why do you THINK people are analyzing (and in your dismissive words, over-analyzing) this event? i'll give you a clue. it's not because they think you r0xx0rs teh b0xx0rs. it's because that for some of us, this boggles the fucking mind. it's because a real death was involved, and every time you open your mouth to say something stupid and thoughtless it looks very uncomfortably like you're shitting on a person WHO REALLY DIED. not some frigging avatar. hey, she WAS worth 19CP, right? you are calling people n00bs for giving a fuck about their friend. what kind of person does that make you, pagy?"


i call them newbs because they are terrible at the game, not because they feel sad. reading in FUNdamental.

people look at this and it's almost a crisis in their mind; laugh or don't laugh. On one hand you want to hate us and the other you want to laugh not only at us but at the ridiculous nature of holding a funeral inside a videogame.

many of us tried to keep it about the "mourners" and not about her, only a few comments were ever made about her. you can interpret actions against her all you want, that's fine; but our consciences are clear and thats all that matters. I really don't think there's an official moral guide on who you can kill or not kill inside video games.

this issue just shed light on a line many people have drawn. a line separating real life and the actions we do inside a video game. like i posted last week, i lost my grandfather and it's ridiculous for me to demand people not kill me inside a video game because of it. When people log into games, they understand their actions are non-existant. If you spawn camp someone in a FPS or kill someone in CS for instance, you may make people upset on the other side of the computer screen. so why is this my concern? People play multiplayer games to have fun, not to worry about the feelings of those on the other end of the screen. And just because you play Counter-Strike, it doesn't make you a terrorist or a violent person. It makes you a video game player, like my actions inside a virtual world of entertainment don't define me.

If you don't draw this line, then you cannot grasp why we did it. that's fine. we've heard every single thing anyone even said about this. We actually responded a couple days late to an MTV request to show it on air (lol). Whatever you've say, we've heard it.. from support and encouragement to dissent and anger.

like i've said maybe a million times, keep personal affairs out of a video game world, and there's no need to act out these tragedies inside the game. I'm allowed to feel this way, like it or not.

"the actions and trash talk by the members of serenity now have shown them up to being nothing more than football hooligans in the making. too bad there's no national front in the US. you'd do really well there."...it's a video game...

107.

the above post was mine.

"that's the part of all this that i find most sickening; that these scumbags are being applauded and e-stroked for mouthing off to people who lost someone they care about. there's such a thing as basic decency, and it's something they appear to lack completely."


cry more?
i think dragging a rl death into a video game doesn't represent human decency, chew on that.

i have no idea of how you can make judgements on someone for the way they conduct yourself inside a video game. go outside if you can't draw a line.

108.

"i have no idea of how you can make judgements on someone for the way they conduct yourself inside a video game. go outside if you can't draw a line."

Have you played Border Patrol? Its that game where you blast Mexicans coming across to the US border. Especially the pregnant breeders, extra points. The white supremecists have a game about shooting blacks and Jews and they say it works great for recruiting people. But it's just a game, doesn't mean anything right?

Ever think that maybe you are a scumbag like people say? That youre the problem not them?

109.

Pagy -- You can't have it both ways. Either;

A) It's just a game, in which case nothing done inside the game has any moral weight at all, and the folks who held the funeral had a right to do so for whatever reasons they wished (RL or game-related). If that's the case, then, yes, your folk were fine to attack them, but you have no cause whatsoever to critisize their actions. To do so implies that they brought morality into the game, which would mean that...

B) It's not just a game, in which case there are moral issues at stake. If this is the case, then folks have a right to question which actions taken in the game are morally more questionable; holding a funeral in-game, or breaking one up.

If you go with (A), you can't question the folks who held the funeral at all. To do so brands you a total hypocrite. If you go with (B), you have to accept that there are some people who will believe that the "players" of the game are more important than the "play" or the "game" itself. IE, that respect for life, etc., is an actual, moral, ethical, maintsream value, and that tromping on it in favor of a different moral value -- "it's just a game, dudes, chill" -- is, well, shitty.

You can choose either A or B. And if you choose B, you can certainly argue that you were right and the funeral folks were wrong. But you should be clear about your argument. To bring RL morality into a game in order to claim that it's wrong to bring RL morality into a game... that's ludicrous.

110.

I know Im hoping people who watch our video go out and wreck funerals in real life with fireballs and pointy swords. Thanks Tom finally someone realized why we made it.

111.

pagy--

you are calling people who were grieving over the death of their friend n00bs because you get off on hurting people, not because they are "terrible at the game", as you put it. how are they terrible at the game? because they chose to play it in a way that YOU didn't much care for? if you didn't get off on fucking with people, you wouldn't be here still talking shit to the friends of the girl who died. it's cool that your conscience is clear. good fucking god, just stop while you're ahead. you're digging your own grave.

i'd love for you to explain this:

"People play multiplayer games to have fun, not to worry about the feelings of those on the other end of the screen."

so your definition of 'fun', by default, involves not giving a fuck about other people, right? please show me how i'm wrong on this.

i play on a pvp server. i pvp and i like it. however, i would never, ever waste my time fucking with some sad-assed people who were just trying to remember their friend the only way they knew how. do i think holding an ingame funeral makes sense? not really. who cares?

get over yourself and stop stroking your epeen. there's absolutely zero crisis in my mind about whether to laugh or not at what you did. i think you're a pig, plain and simple. a pig.

if you were upfront about the fact that it makes you feel all tingly inside to fuck with other human beings, the bullshit you've spouted here on this board would be easier to take, because at least you'd be honest about it.

as it stands you're just pathetic and trying to hide behind lousy rationalizations.

i still think you'd make a great football hooligan. check it out. you really get a rush from that shit right before it all goes off. you'd fucking love it.

good luck in life, pagy, i'm out.

just keep your diseases away from me and my family, kthxbai.

112.

meh. they could have held the memorial in horde territory. instead, they chose a contested zone.

kind of like scheduling a church service in the middle of a battlefield if you ask me.

113.

I don't play WoW, and given the ire & debate this event has caused, I can't say I'm inclined to try.

I have played a few online games for some time. I've read through all the posts here; some look at the entire thing as a fascinating social commentary; others talk of honor in war; others still say it's just a game.

I'm going to deliberately ignore debate on PvP. It's a hotly debated topic with good reason; I'm not sure there is a suitable solution. Ultimately that the game allowed the event is no excuse. I can walk up to someone and shoot them right here in the real world. There are quite a few places in the world where exactly that is happening. What is at issue here is social, not game mechanics.

Firstly, death in real life isn't a game. There's no respawn, no happy reuniting, just emptiness and loss and rememberance. For those of you who like to pretend to be macho and say 'well get over it' I would suggest you wait until you have suffered such before commenting (also, even if this was a hoax death as some have suggested, the fact is that a lot of people assumed it wasn't). Secondly, that the event was held in-game (ignoring perhaps the silliness of choosing a PvP server) has no bearing on the solemnity of the event. I can think of numerous people that I have known online only and with whom I have built genuine friendships. Do they have less value than those formed in the real world? Perhaps and perhaps not.

For the people who perpetrated this attack in Serenity Now, I can only have contempt. Whether you feel the funeral was appropriate or not is no justification. This is like 'you're having a barbecue in your back yard; I feel back yards are not the place for this, so I'll come over and spray you all with water, because I'm right and you're wrong'. There were plenty of ways to register your discontent with the concept; but no, you had to choose something childish, with the maturity of a mentally-defective five year old, and then brag about it, no less.

Now the next section I am going to write something that I do not in any way condone - I write it to make a point, nothing more.

I can think of a suitable way to remind you of how callous and cruel life can be, and that to be human is to also be compassionate and understanding of others, no matter whether you agree with them or not. It would be fair justice if the bereaved parents hunted you all down, except for one thing. They would be tried for murder, rightly, because here in the real world we have some concept of social responsibility. How sad and cowardly of you to hide behind justifications like 'it's only a game' or 'the game mechanics allowed it' because, conveniently, WoW has no such requirements of social responsiblity.

It's disappointing that when people like you are taken from a real world with real rules and real consequences, and given a world without rules, that you feel the need to act like jackasses, instead of showing that you can act with some maturity when given independence.

"people look at this and it's almost a crisis in their mind; laugh or don't laugh. On one hand you want to hate us and the other you want to laugh not only at us but at the ridiculous nature of holding a funeral inside a videogame." Pagy

I for one don't laugh at or with you or the event; I can only despise you. Whatever twisted moral code you follow, it's not one I would care to be associated with. Oh, and I'm entitled to my opinion too "like it or not". People can and will judge you for your actions in the game, whether you are like that in the real world or not.

"our consciences are clear and thats all that matters." Pagy

I don't think you have one, and your comment just makes the case stronger. You are making the statement that actually, you can do what you want, and as long as you're ok with it, well, that's all that matters. When they lock you up for being a sociopath, be sure to tell them that.

114.

Once again there are lots of completely inaccurate comparisons being drawn to real life: shooting someone, crashing someone's barbecue, etc. None of these analogies recognizes that entering a contested zone on a PvP server gives consent for someone to fight you.

Talking about bereaved parents hunting the attackers down in real life & killing them demonstrates an astonishing lack of perspective. Although I don't feel comfortable with everything in Pagy's posts, it's amazing to read someone seriously advocating real life retaliation for messing up someone's online memorial service.

Seriously guys, it's like holding a funeral at a circus and being outraged when a clown shows up and sprays you all with water from the fake carnation in his lapel. An event is not free of the context in which it is held. When you go out of your way to hold your memorial service somewhere where it positively invites being attacked, you don't get to complain when the inevitable happens.

115.

Yes, the hand-wringing is a little ridiculous, dont you think, my little pseudo-intellectuals?

The players participating in the funeral were in a contested pvp zone. They easily could have held the funeral in a non-contested zone. Now, given the fact they CHOSE to both advertise the location on public forums AND to use a contested zone, I hardly feel sympathy.

Having seen the video, it would look like the funeral-goers greatly outnumbered the gankers. Could someone enlighted me as to WHY these pixelized representations of fantasy HACK and SLASH characters (since, lets face it, that is the core gameplay mechanic) should not carry weapons to a funeral? This is'nt Second Life...its a Conan rip-off, a derivative. Remember that. Besides, the funeral goers did have weapons, they just did a piss-poor job of fighting off the gankers. Too bad, so sad.

Sorry guys, but anyone who gets all worked up about this needs more important things to worry about. If a person cannot handle the tinest bit of emotional trauma, caused by a GAME, I would posit they are incapable of handling REALITY.

116.

Yes, the hand-wringing is a little ridiculous, dont you think, my little pseudo-intellectuals?

The players participating in the funeral were in a contested pvp zone. They easily could have held the funeral in a non-contested zone. Now, given the fact they CHOSE to both advertise the location on public forums AND to use a contested zone, I hardly feel sympathy.

Having seen the video, it would look like the funeral-goers greatly outnumbered the gankers. Could someone enlighted me as to WHY these pixelized representations of fantasy HACK and SLASH characters (since, lets face it, that is the core gameplay mechanic) should not carry weapons to a funeral? This is'nt Second Life...its a Conan rip-off, a derivative. Remember that. Besides, the funeral goers did have weapons, they just did a piss-poor job of fighting off the gankers. Too bad, so sad.

Sorry guys, but anyone who gets all worked up about this needs more important things to worry about. If a person cannot handle the tinest bit of emotional trauma, caused by a GAME, I would posit they are incapable of handling REALITY.

117.

"Everyone agreed that they had been playing a fun game in this lawless space. They also assumed that the significance of this real-world death transcended the game's rules and combat conventions." when something bad happens.

You know what they say about assuming things.

Having played WoW extensively, you should always assume your opponents and companions have the intellectual capacity of 8 year olds - that is, unless they are on the subject of Chuck Norris, in which case they wax eloquent and put Cicero to shame.

Why o why, in a game filled with children running around saying LOL and PWNT would you assume you could have this nice, peaceful, undistubed funeral? I am convinced these people don't even play the same game.

The event organizers, coming from a pvp server, should have expected some trouble and should have been prepared for it. Anything else would be NEGLIGENT. Whining about what happened is ridiculous, these people should have known better.

Just because I tell a 10 year old kid to stop eating dirt does'nt mean he's going to listen, capiche?

I believe there is an adage the organizers could have followed and avoided any problems: "Speak softly and CARRY A BIG STICK."

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