The Horde is Evil

In the Terranova backchannel, an ugly debate (I've been creating most of the ugliness) has erupted over the significance of avatar choice. I've advanced two controversial positions: that avatar choice is not a neutral thing from the standpoint of personal integrity, and that the Horde, in World of Warcraft, is evil. Nobody agrees, but it's been suggested that the community could chew on this a bit.

So here's my view: When a real person chooses an evil avatar, he or she should be conscious of the evil inherent in the role. There are good reasons for playing evil characters - to give others an opportunity to be good, to help tell a story, to explore the nature of evil. But when the avatar is a considered an expression of self, in a social environment, then deliberately choosing a wicked character is itself a (modestly) wicked act.

Then when we look at WoW, it seems to me obvious that the Horde races are on the whole evil. One element of this is the fact that the words 'troll' and 'orc' and 'undead' have implied evil creatures for as long as those words have been in use in the English language (since the 9th century in the case of 'orc'). No one, not even mighty Blizzard, can un-do the meaning of a word in a matter of a few years. But more importantly, all you have to do is look at the values expressed by the cultures, and it should be apparent which sets of values are worthy of praise. The human race is the only one with children, and charitable giving, for example. Orcs, on the other hand, value warfare and power. In terms of public ethics, this is a no-brainer to me, really.
So it's been fascinating to me to see the counterarguments. For example, it was said that because Warcraft's orcs have some noble features, and humans some ugly features, the two races are ethically equivalent. And there were many other, similar arguments, which to me have had very little merit.

But what made me feel most isolated from this community of scholars was the general indifference to the entire issue. To choose orc, it was said, does not carry with it any particular moral or ethical baggage. It was a matter of playstyles, tastes, personal interests.

Goodness, I could not disagree more. My view is that in a social game, these choices are laden with all kinds of implications for personal integrity.  Avatar choice is fraught with broader meaning.

Two concrete examples of where the choice matters:

1. I am a father. A guild of colleagues chose to play Horde. I rolled an Undead. My son (age 3) was afraid of my character. He was afraid of the Undercity. And that's just from the imagery - he would know nothing of what the Undead actually do in terms of kinapping, imprisonment, and torture. He's afraid, and he should be afraid, and as his father, my only defense in this frightening choice would have to be that I am just trying out evil, just getting to know it, just using evil instrumentally for some greater purpose. He abviously can't grasp that now, but even if he could, these are the only possible  justifications for me to inhabit such a wicked being. And my point is that the inhabitation would indeed require justification. If my undead warlock were an extension of myself, something I was pursuing for mere enjoyment, then it ought to be a troubling question for me, sholdn't it? Why am I finding pleasure in expressing myself in a form that frightens 3-year-olds? My assertion is that this is a genuine and significant moral issue that everyone who chooses an avatar needs to think about. Morally compulsory.

2. I give talks and interviews. I'm often asked what avatar I play. People then draw conclusions about me from what they see. It's one thing if the conclusion is "when this guy plays Fable, he goes to the dark side." Fable is a single-player game. To go evil there is implicitly to explore some aspect of evil. It affects the well-being of no one but me. But if being evil involves the well-being of others, as it well might in a social game, then the conclusion might change. Questions might arise. "So when this guy plays World of Warcraft, he plays on the evil side, and he goes out and eats the flesh on the dead bodies that had been played by other people. Wonder why he does that?" For those of us versed in gameplay, maybe that's not a big deal. But imagine you had a completely fresh perspective about gaming and characters. The choice of undead warlock, or orc, or troll, would at the very least raise questions. A reporter might laugh and ask, "why are you playing on the evil side?" And what is my answer? It better be something about exploring what evil is like, etc., because if it's just self-expression, it's an open and public acceptance a patently evil society. Which would be wrong - it's wrong, when you are a public figure, to say that evil acts are OK. And hence the choice of Undead, by a scholar, as an act of self-expression (rather than study, exploration, serving as a foil, etc.), is questionable from the standpoint of personal integrity.

In advancing these positions, I am upending a number of apple carts. One is the ostensible objectivity of academic research. I know many people here feel they are fully in touch with the ambiguities of value in the academy, but it's amazing how little prepared people are, when it comes to the practical example of avatar choice, to accept that morals and values and Right and Wrong do play a role. As scholars, folks here are convinced they are not swayed by their passions. But what I sense is a passionate and arational commitment to denying the presence of ethics at all in the choice of how we play.

Another is the role of designer as god: if Blizzard says orcs are noble, then they are noble. I'm saying Blizzard does not have that power, that there are fundamental forces  at work that prevent anyone from creating a thing, calling it 'orc', and then assigning to it a broad social goodness. Those forces are partly social, and to the extent that they are, they are exactly analogous to the forces that dictate prices. But I have faith that those forces are more than just social construction. Orcs are ancient representatives of a bad, bad thing, and one cannot undo the power of that association in the course of a single videogame, even one played by millions for a year. Orcs are still evil, even though Blizzard says they are not. If Blizzard wanted to make orcs un-evil, then they would have had to associate their culture more closely with commonly-accepted notions of what a good society is: orcs would have to have children, they would have to value love over war, would have to see little nobility in bloodshed, would have to reject alliance with undead beings, would have to be charitable. But they didn't do that; they endowed orcs with a savage culture and then said that there is some nobility in savagery. Well, just as my five bushels of apples are not sufficient to change the world's understanding of what an apple is and what it costs, Blizzard's game is not sufficient to change the moral loading of their orcs.

Third, I'm defending a point of view that I'm disappointed is not more widely-held among academics, which is that these worlds are not mere play-spaces, nor mere extensions of the real world. They are a place where we can hear a faint echo of things unconscious, even mystical. What happens in these places is deeply significant; their symbology carries genuine religious and spiritual meaning; they are (or ought to be held and protected as) different, fundamentally different and distinct, from life as usual. To treat these environments as mere platforms for fooling around or making money, is in my view bordering on sacrilege. These places are precious and vulnerable. That's my mindset when I make an avatar choice - that it is a very serious affair, and how I choose to be in the world reflects who I am very, very deeply.

I've argued that there's deep ethical significance to what Terra Novans do in-game, and that's met with universal rejection in the backchannel. I doubt it will fare any better out here. But Cory suggested the discussion was worth carrying over, so here it is.

Posted by Edward Castronova on December 24, 2005 | Permalink

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Comments

Cory Ondrejka says:

Oh, great, this is my fault :-) Since I'm way too busy to play WoW, I'm not even really even on the backchannel discussion, but . . .

I have a couple of questions, Ted.

1) Would you say that the question in WoW avatar choice is equivalent to choosing alignment in Dungeons and Dragons? After all, to play a thief (where you would often end up with different incentives than other members of your party) you'd often pick an evil alignment.

2) Since even single player games are often social (people stopping to watch you play, etc) , is there really so much difference between WoW and Fable or GTA3? Wouldn't your 3 year old be just as bothered by seeing you drive over a hooker after getting a power up to get your money back? Or, to use an older example, in the Origin game Privateer, one of the fasted methods of advancements was to be a pirate, especially because selling captured pilots into slavery was extremely profitable. Is this an evil act, or an optimization of the path through the game to get to more interesting content later?

Finally, if the game was designed to have a struggle between good and evil (I'm not claiming that this is WoW, but posing this as more of a hypothetical), for example an online GTA3 game where you could play either cops or crooks, then isn't having humans playing the crooks critical to the game? How does fulfilling a role critical to the success of the world a poor ethical decision? Thieves and assassins made D&D a more interesting world -- were all the kids who chose to play those roles ethically challenged?

Posted Dec 24, 2005 1:01:02 PM | link

G_D says:

"EVERY art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim. But a certain difference is found among ends; some are activities, others are products apart from the activities that produce them. Where there are ends apart from the actions, it is the nature of the products to be better than the activities. Now, as there are many actions, arts, and sciences, their ends also are many; the end of the medical art is health, that of shipbuilding a vessel, that of strategy victory, that of economics wealth. But where such arts fall under a single capacity- as bridle-making and the other arts concerned with the equipment of horses fall under the art of riding, and this and every military action under strategy, in the same way other arts fall under yet others- in all of these the ends of the master arts are to be preferred to all the subordinate ends; for it is for the sake of the former that the latter are pursued." - Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics.

From the standpoint of morality within fiction, most monists would simply ask: "To what level of moral coherence do the actors aspire?" Difference in ranking would come about by painstaking enumeration of the extent of axioms and precepts obeyed in consequence to other axioms and how persistently this structure is pursued. A high score in this cosmological enterprise earns one a predominant leaning toward that thing defined as "The Good".

Warlike or appetitive behaviour alone fails to exclude the orcs or other blemished hominids from being considered moral creatures. Quite the opposite in fact, even though any tendency towards factionalism is an indicator of mortal reason in the domain of the metaxy.

I would be inclined to say that wishy washiness is the prime indicator of morality amongst the denizens of a world in homage to the Art of warcraft. However, I have some doubts on putting obedience to principle over recognition of contingency when it comes to divining natural law.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 1:16:18 PM | link

Guest says:

Well, on a purely factual level, there are some problems here. Orcs have children and charitable works: there's an orphanage in Orgrimmar. The Orcish leadership is not aware, within the game's fiction, of the Forsaken's darker plans, which puts them a step above the United States at various times in our own history. And it's pretty obvious from their actions (rather than their rhetoric) that the Alliance races value war just as much as the Horde races: it was the Alliance which started the current war by colonizing Horde territory.

Also, obviously, whatever the scripting of the NPC's says, the behavior of Alliance player characters is essentially indistinguishable from that of Horde player characters.

Lastly, it's ridiculous to argue that the gut reactions of 3-year-olds are a good way of measuring good and evil. I imagine most 3-year-olds find tarantulas pretty frightening; does that make them evil? Maybe one of the appealing things about Horde is that it belies the identification of "pretty" and "good".

Posted Dec 24, 2005 1:44:36 PM | link

Randy Farmer says:

I've always felt that character/alignment selection was an (admitedly pale) reflection of the players actions.

In the 30-odd years I've run AD&D campaigns, I've come only allow player-charcter alignments that in the quadrant bounded by good-neutral to neutral-lawful, with only theives being permitted to be true-neutral. This was the result of my first campaign, run when I was 16, when I learned what kind of viciousness players could dish out, when my father, playing a chaotic-neutral druid participated in attack schemes that horrified me (but were allowed by the rules, given his alignment.) I never wanted to let anyone confuse/dissapoint me like that again.

Ted, if you are serious about researching this, look for a potential gender preference bias:

There is a reason that the vast majority of those who play Diplomacy are male: Male gamers seem to be better at suspending our RL moral code ("always keep your promises") in a game context ("Now is time for me to break my alliance and capture Spain!").

Does anyone have numbers on City of Villans? I loved playing City of Heros for about 9 months, but the idea of CoV just seemed silly to me - more of the same without the moral imperitive.

I found that my favorite COH characters always refected a some internal hero-quality in myself.

But, I was a casual player.

Perhaps thjs is key to the challange Ted has stumbled upon: Are we talking about the differnce between character selection by hard-core players (as play Diplomacy, in the boardgame world) vs. casual players?

Could it be that hard-core players are "consuming all the content" or "playing the min-max game" or whatever optimizing strategy - so morality doesn't much enter into it? Perhaps, in contrast, causual gamers aren't going to min-max anything or consume all the content, so their internal moral compass provides a much larger part of the gaming experience - a sort of gameplay-foundation?

If so, yhis would explain the member of the mailing-list seeming to dismiss Ted's concerns: They're all hard-core - it really *doesn't* matter to them!

Posted Dec 24, 2005 1:54:55 PM | link

Bruce Cordell says:

I think you're on to something. Don't know what exactly, or if I agree emphatically. Certainly a hypothesis that begs a series of non-anecdotal experiments. In the universe next door where I'm stupid wealthy, I've just released funds for a 5 year study of avatar choice cross-indexed with people and their interpersonal relationships and activities in the real world.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 1:56:35 PM | link

Mark Wallace says:

Imagine a game in which you have the choice of playing as a German WW2-era concentration camp administrator and your goal is to gather and kill as many Jews as possible. I would never make that choice. WW2-era Germany was the site of much evil, evil that took place in the real world. I would not want to associate myself with that particular evil in a game. I don't have the same feelings about taking the German side in a game like Squad Leader or Battlefield 1942, but the faint echo of those feelings is still there, even in games like those.

Orcs, on the other hand, are an allegorical construction, they have never existed in the real world, nor committed any acts of evil there. As such, I'd argue that they carry considerably less moral weight than you're trying to put on them. The fact is that the "market" (i.e., the players of World of Warcraft) does not place the same value on Orcs that you do. Evil in the WoW market has been so completely discounted as to be almost meaningless. I would even go so far as to say that the fantasy evil that Orcs represent does not have much value in the broader market. Orcs simply aren't shocking or scary or even very evil anymore to almost anyone over the age of 12. The world -- apart from those few who have bothered to open their OEDs -- does not understand the word Orc in its Old English sense. At this point, the world probably doesn't even understand Orc as an artifact of Tolkien but rather as one of Peter Jackson.

Besides which, there is vast cultural near-sightedness here: do you think Indians or Arabs or Chinese share this centuries-old notion of Orcs, or do the easterners who play WoW, of which there are many, have an understanding of the word that is of much more recent vintage? By that reckoning, the market most decidedly does not share the Old English understanding of the word. We Anglophones simply don't have the apples to make it so.

In any case, the world understands "Orc" as a fantasy construct, one that does not, has never and will never threaten anything real and/or living. Playing an Undead character does not constitute "an open and public acceptance [of] a patently evil society." There is no such society to accept or reject. I'm sure there is some kind of undereducated logical fallacy I'm committing here, but I still maintain that the choice of Orc or Undead vs. Human or Night Elf carries far less moral weight than the choice of concentration camp administrator vs. American leatherneck.

I'm not denying that avatars have deep connections to real people, by the way. I think that's something that's forgotten too often. But I think perhaps the thing that bothers me most about your analysis is that it completely denies the person behind the avatar any opportunity to be a moral actor in the world. In my view, *how* you choose to inhabit the fiction of a game world is far more important than which branch of that fiction you choose to inhabit. What if you did take the role of the German concentration camp administrator in the imaginary game posed above, but instead of putting people to death you managed to gather many thousands of Jews and then ship them off to safety. Can that player still said to be welcoming or condoning evil only by virtue of the fact that he or she is inhabiting a symbol of evil in the game world? Where is the player's moral agency here? Does it really end at the choice of faction? There are indeed faint echoes of the unconscious, the mystical, the religious and the spiritual to be found in these worlds. But what's so wonderful about that is that they are echoes of the things we are doing there *now*, they are the sounds of a new kind of mysticism being created by the power that *players* are given. To me, that power far outweighs the faint echo of Old English that does not even reach most people's ears.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 2:33:56 PM | link

Shanoyu says:

I think that feminists and race scholars have something when they say the social value we attribute to something is reflected in our choice of words, and those words have a reflexive effect on the symbol we attatch them to.

Perhaps that these 'savage' and more 'conniving' and 'warlike' races are considered evil as opposed to their savage, conniving, and warlike alliance counterparts is a reflection of that.

Maybe it's simply we tend to associate 'humans' with the good guys and everyone else as simply being evil.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 2:49:17 PM | link

Torley Torgeson says:

One of my favorite things is how even some of the most deep-seated of cultural traditions can be taken the wrong way if there's no prior context. For example, I used to freak out relatives by sticking chopsticks upright into a bowl of rice when I was very young. They kept saying I was wishing ill omens of death on us all, and I laughed it off. I still do--certainly not to be disrespectful, but because in my own mind, as Torley, I'm coming from my own culture, a different place.

While a few years may not change the meaning of a word, a few years more might. A favorite example of mine would be the pool that encapsulates "bad" (hi Michael Jackson!), "ill", "sick", and "wicked", among others. If you say someone is wicked nowadays, it doesn't tend to carry a lot of weight, insofar as "the burden of evil" goes.

I have two favorite other examples: Shrek, the ogre, and Deekin, the kobold. Ogres and kobolds, along with orcs and the undead, aren't perceived as being as airy as fairies, but these two individuals are more than comedic token characters.

I am fascinated by hearing of stories about people who are tormented offline with evil and are playing as an evil-associated avatar in the hopes of redeeming and doing good ingame, so that they too may become better as whole people. Online worlds as a metaconfession booth, even. Unfortunately, these tales are hard to come by, and Shawshank Redemption might not make the best MMO (altho it's a fantastic movie), as wonderful as salvation is, so I'm leaving this slot open for the future.

In Second Life, avatar choice is something I take very seriously, and for me, it is extremely reflective of who I am.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 3:25:24 PM | link

William Huber says:

I rather see that Blizzard is playing against the grain of the usual alignment of races in its fictions. Blizzard was quite conscious of the (modern) history of orcs as a stock "evil" race when they transformed Warcraft III into a tale of the redemption of the race from the historical, rather than racial, characteristics that aligned it with the demonic.

That is where I think the Warcraft millieu is the most interesting - in its implicit critique of the racist ontology of modern Western family, by which race is moral destiny (the Catholic Tolkein himself struggled with the problem of orc redemption - if orcs were irredeemable, then they lack free will; if they lack free will, then they cannot be damned. Yet he disallows the possibility of orc redemption. In an sense, he could be described as having been caught between two different metaphysics, one of which derived from the British Imperial experience of other cultures, the other derived from Christian moral theology.)

Blizzard went the interesting route of challenging the fantasy-race-as-moral-destiny principle while still leaving in the network of signs by which 'evil' is recognized by humans (or, by the modern West, at least.) If they had simply reversed the formula, and made orcs into poor misunderstood innocents, I think it would have been less interesting. Instead, there are networks - and not monopoles - of ideology within both the horde and the alliance that are compelling.

Remember that both sides are capable of producing warlocks, that magic in the Warcraft fiction has a natural tendency towards the demonic, and that the less destructive alternative - shamanism - is a practice of the Horde. It is not unusual for people I know to identify the Orcs or Taurens as morally prefereable to the industrializing, rationalizing humans and dwarves, to see the latter as suspect, all the while retaining the signs that usually mark the 'good' and the 'evil' (glowing white auras, knighly imagery and white castles for the humans - bone-and-tusk architecture, green skin, and tribalism for the Orcs) in traditional fantasy.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 3:39:42 PM | link

Lydia Leong (Amberyl) says:

On WoW in specific:

I think you're not giving Blizzard's writers enough credit for being non-simplistic -- and it sounds like you haven't played enough Horde to really know what they're about. One of the things that's been very clear to me as I've played through the game is that neither Alliance nor Horde are fully good or fully evil.

The Undead believe the ends justify the means, and tend to be the ones that most clearly embrace "evil" in the typical evil tropes -- using poisons, consorting with demons, and the like. (But note that the Alliance isn't above using poisons or consorting with demons, either.)

The rest of the Horde, though, is far from evil. The Tauren are peaceful nature-lovers. (As one of my friends jokes, as a young Tauren, you're sent out doing things like "go check in on my mother and make sure you're all right" and "save the animals", whereas as a young Human, you're sent out on a lot of quests to get various people alcohol.) The Orcs are trying to overcome their past as tools of evil, and are consequently concerned about behaving with honor and doing the right thing. The Darkspear Trolls (the only PC trolls) have broken away from the other, evil trolls.

By the way, the Horde races (other than the Forsaken) also have children. There's an orphanage in Orgrimmar and an orphan's day. (The text related to it, by the way, is nearly identical to the Alliance-side text.)

By contrast, there seems to be clear indications that the Alliance is corrupt. Much of the Alliance quests concern their own internal struggles, as well -- consider the Defias, for instance.

The game world benefits from the ambiguity. What it lacks, unfortunately, is a way for players to make meaningful moral choices.

Daedalus, PlayOn, et.al. have shown us that there are quantifiable differences between the way that Alliance and Horde characters behave in-game. Blizzard has, however, tried hard to ensure that all players can see their characters as heroes -- sometimes misguided ones, true, but heroes nonetheless. You'll find that Horde players don't generally think of themselves or their characters as playing evil. If anything, my experience as Horde has been that Horde players pride themselves on being more helpful, friendly, polite, and mature than the Alliance.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 5:38:47 PM | link

Scott Jennings says:

Great post, and thought provoking.

First off - Blizzard may not always have intended as such, but by the time Warcraft III came out, the Orcs were by no means intended to be "evil". In fact if anything, the Humans were 'evil' - or in any event tragically flawed, and thus sowing the seeds for their eventual fall at the hands of Arthas, their leader/betrayer.

But back to Orcs - while in WC2 they were stereotypical "kill things rend maim destroy" bad guys, WC3 purposefully made the boundaries vaguer. At the beginning of the game, the Orcs have lost a war and are penned up in reservations/refugee camps (boy howdy, enough latter-day parallels for you?) by an openly racist Alliance occupation force. Their leader, Thrall, doesn't seek to destroy the humans, but to escape from them, and lead his people to his own homeland. A subplot emerges where the daemonic Burning Legion (which are undeniably evil) attempt to subvert the Orcs and lead them back into thralldom and the bestial nature they exhibited in WC2; this is specifically stated to be a Bad Thing and the plot is eventually foiled.

The expansion pack draws this out a bit further; the Orc campaign is actually that of a half-ogre/half-orc (Rexxar, who in WoW wanders Desolace) who fights against human invaders in a foreshadowing of the human/orc conflict in WoW.

So. WoW isn't exactly high drama, but it does have some pretty clear latter-day analogs on the Horde side:

Taurens - Native Americans, from architecture, to a shamanic world view, to the use of rifles on the prarie.

Orcs - Warlike band of until recently homeless refugees, bent on honorable conflict. Kind of a wacky cross between Palestinians and Klingons.

Trolls - Blizzard never really developed trolls beyond "island guys with Jamaican accents".

Undead - Well, this would be the one "evil" race of the Horde (and, really, the entire game). Blizzard tried to write a backstory of the Forsaken as the "good guy independent" Undead, but, well, the backstory in game makes them pretty nasty. Within a few levels you're doing biological experiments on helpless Alliance captives and running fed-ex quests for demons. Yep, evil.

The Alliance backstories pale in comparison; the Humans have their political backstory, the Dwarves and Elves aren't really that well defined, and the Gnomes are played for laughs.

Anyway, I probably take this stuff a bit too seriously, but I can certainly understand a father of a young child not wanting to run around Undercity with his metal-hair Warlock, succubus in tow.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 5:47:48 PM | link

Lydia Leong (Amberyl) says:

On the issue of roleplaying evil in general:

Search for "roleplaying evil" on Google and you'll find that it's been a much-debated topic in a wide variety of forums, pretty much from the dawn of roleplaying.

The more sophisticated both roleplaying and storytelling in general get, the more gray characters become. This is also a historical cycle, at least in the West -- we cycle between our love of the gray, like Batman, and our love of the black-and-white, like Superman. We seem to currently be in a cycle where love of the gray is dominating, although this may be cycling back. We live in a time of ambiguity, after all, especially in the United States.

I think that it's enormously valuable to have the gray; it lends richness to a setting and to characters. It also means that the player who wants to can think and reflect on what he's doing and the context in which it resides; this is admittedly frustrating in MMORPGs because the outcome has already been predetermined, though, so that moral choice is stripped of its meaning.

There are many complex questions, really. What is the nature of evil? How do people become evil? What means are justified by the ends? Why does evil exist in the world? What are the means of redemption? The flip side questions are interesting as well. What is good? How does one decide between the personal good, the good of the group, the broader common good, and the abstract idea of good? Can good be taken too far? (Ultima V asked this last question magnificently.)

The answers to interesting moral questions are not, and should not be, simple, at least not for adults (or teenagers).

The face-to-face roleplaying games that I run frequently involve rather gray characters, and complex decision-making. What would you do to save your kingdom?

I do think there's a difference, by the way, between roleplaying a genuine sociopath/psychopath who commits vile acts for no reason other than the joy of doing it, and a character who is making difficult decisions because life is presenting him with unpleasant choices. I don't play with people who do the former, and they tend to creep me out. The latter, however, tends to make for fantastic drama.

By the way, your three-year-old is probably going to be scared of the Forsaken, the end, but for an older child, the "ugly" and "frightening-looking" Horde models might be a good place to begin a discussion for "why you shouldn't judge people by just their appearance".

Posted Dec 24, 2005 5:56:14 PM | link

Ish says:

I think people tend to overanalyse things. I think this particular blog entry analyses things past the point where its useful to deeply analyse something. Personally I picked a Horde Undead character because it looked cool.

Maybe that reveals some hidden deep desire, thnking, or motive on my part. But maybe, just maybe, I really did pick a Horde Undead character because it looked cool.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 6:54:11 PM | link

Jim says:

Interesting comments, although I can't say I agree too much with the article itself.

As it has already been said, I don't believe you have allowed yourself to becomes immersed in the story and fiction of WoW. I also disagree with the presumption that those who create an avatar that might more readily be percieved as 'evil' is in fact accepting such morally devoid principles. Most disturbing is the argument that such races such as Orcs and Undead are somehow inherently 'evil'. I reject this wholeheartedly, and I believe this argument stems from an inherent fear of all that is different. (hints of racism and intolerance being causal factors.)

Because a culture identifies with or glorifies warfare, this does not make it automatically 'evil' in nature. For example, anthropologists studied a number of tribes in the pacific islands that engaged in a practice of headhunting - killing others and severing the heads, taking those heads with them. What was considered barbarous activity with no motive other than violence for sport was in fact a part of a very complex belief system, where the taking of heads had spiritual meanings and therefore social consequences (in the positive sense).

Now I'm not suggesting such behaviour is desirable, my point is simply that difference of opinions/cultures/beliefs is not enough, especially academically, to label a side 'good' or 'evil'. Evil in WoW is empitimised by the burning legion, demons who come to devour the world. In them there is no society, no culture, only the goal of ultimate destruction to everyone and everything. Anything else pales in comparison to such a true 'evil'. I highly recommend you take the time to discover the history of Azeroth and the races who make up such a rich world. I also urge you to step back from preconceptions of good and evil, of right and wrong, and be far more objective in your approach.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:15:39 PM | link

Bruce Baugh says:

lsh makes an important point: WoW is (particularly for players new to this kind of game) amazingly good-looking and full of stuff you haven't seen before, and the urge to start dabbling with as much of it as possible is important.

William Huber also makes exactly the point I was going to: that evil in the WoW cosmology is historical rather than genetic. In terms of sheer body count and misery, too, the elves top the list: their first experiments with the arcane gave us the destruction of half a continent, and the high elves' fumbling around after that helped set up for the Burning Legion's return, and now the jury-rigged world tree is very likely to make a fresh catastrophic mess. And they did it all without either civilization-threatening crisis (a la gnomes) or demonic domination (a la orcs) as an excuse.

One more thing about WoW, particularly at the high end: redemption looms large. There's a quest in the Eastern Plaguelands where you set free the souls of Darrowshire soldiers turned into ghouls. It's moving. So is the quest chain from Tirion Fordring to retrieve his son from the Scarlet Crusade. And, on a less epic scale, the gnome warrior Linken and his battle against Blazerunner, which the PCs get to help make possible. And some of the quests in Silithus, to put troubled souls to rest. The list goes and on. Some of these are faction-specific, but many are open to whoever of either side wants to do them. Furthermore, since there are good items attached to many of these as rewards, players are reading through descriptions of redemption and release even when they're not especially paying attention.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:16:19 PM | link

Jonathan says:

I would have to disagree 100% with this viewpoint about the horde and alliance, although I would agree that what one chooses as an avatar in a game does reflect something of that person. in much the same way choosing a car or home or clothes can reflect things.

But really, basing part of htyis arguement off the fact that it scared your 3 year old? Yea thats real sound logic for determining good and evil - base it entirely on looks, sigh. The only real evil I see in the game, as far as characters, are the undead and warlocks, which happen to be on both sides. Humans are good? Doubtful at best - they have just as much built in good and evil as any other race. Night Elves are arrogant and concieted. On the other hand the Taurens are somewhat noble and remind me more of the Amercian Indians. Orcs are a warlike race and got twisted by demons but have their own honor.

You stated "The human race is the only one with children", actually the orc have childred, did you even play any of the horde? There are so many holes and prejudices in your arguement its hard to know where to even begin. It sounds more like being pretty = good, being cultured and advanced (versus a more primitive or savage culture) = good, that because certain races have been stereotyped you should always judge these people by the stereotype.

That because at an interview someone may prejudge your character based on no understanding of what they are judging, and because of this the horde is evil and picking one is evil?

I have read a lot of nonsense online but is certainly at the top of the heap. The only part that has any grounds in reality is a reflection of chosing an avatar. Even that often has little to do with anything.

I first played a Night Elf but by the time I got him to 60 I had found most of the night elf players I met were often jerks who picked them because they were the popular and "pretty class" and similar to the "evil" dark elves of Savatore and AD&D fame.

I then played a human for awhile and then grew bored. So I made an Orc. He is a noble, honorable Orc, and I played him the same way I did an alliance. There was no "evil" wish to play him. Only the undead I consider to be on the evil side. As far as Troll, Orc or Tauren, I choose Orc as I liked how they looked and anyone who has any background on Thrall would know that Orcs are every much as decent as "humans" . In fact, in game or real life, I find many humans to be far less decent then orcs.

Maybe you should stop worryinn about perceived stereotypes and worrying about a 3 year old reacting to a 'scary" graphic and try to get through the "pretty" = "good" syndrome.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:28:48 PM | link

Nick Yee says:

In WoW where even the Undead are portrayed as sad, tragic individuals and where the primary activity is grinding, it's not clear much substantial moral play occurs (beyond what individual players make of it). And even in games like GTA, "bad" things are justified and portrayed as good. When you're doing "evil" in a world where everyone else is "evil", you're just a conformist pretending to be rebel :)

Isn't portraying an "evil" character on stage a better example? What does it mean to play a Judas, a Caiphas, or the Devil on stage? Cause playing those roles forces you to actually take on more complex motives, rather than simply stealing grapes from a vineyard in Northshire to help the local drunkard.

But in the same way that the evil step-mother and the fairy godmother in fairy tales are really the same person split into acceptable halves (good and bad mother), and just as we ourselves have good and bad sides, it's not clear this simple division of "good" and "evil" captures what's happening.

Isn't it the people who deny and refuse to understand their dark sides who we really should be afraid of?

My young cousin used to cry when he saw this clown mask in the house. But clowns aren't evil. Oh wait ...

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:29:16 PM | link

Chris says:

Interesting ideas, but like other commentators I think you're not giving Blizzard enough credit. I think the race lines in WoW are clearly intended to be blurry as to give both sides a chance to be heroes: more often than not this is done by giving you an always-evil third party (scourge, demons) to concern yourself with. Worth noting that almost all of the evil Orcs you'll fight are demonic or possessed, while almost all of the evil Humans you fight are bandits, pirates, or other villains with free will. The orcs have a barbaric, autocratic society, but it has clearly seen enough hardship to temper its people.

Also of interest is the origin of races - the Night Elves, WoW's most frequently referenced "pretty" race, are trolls mutated by the Sun Well thousands of years ago, who persue the relentless destruction of their own, more primal, progenitors (source: Alterac Valley horde collection quests, books in-game).

Early Horde quests also make it fairly clear that the Undead are part of the Horde due to Thrall's insistance - not everyone is happy about it, but the Warchief believes that they deserve the same chance to break free from their shackles as the orcs did. Surely this is an example of charity, of valuing freedom above bloodshed?

I could go on, but it seems fairly clear to me that the Horde cannot simply be labelled "bad".

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:29:30 PM | link

Michael Chui says:

One element of this is the fact that the words 'troll' and 'orc' and 'undead' have implied evil creatures for as long as those words have been in use in the English language (since the 9th century in the case of 'orc').

On the other hand, the word 'nice' hasn't had a problem changing its meaning completely not once but roughly about five times over every few centuries. It's been co-opted into various slang, many of which I might add, are not more than a decade old, and have wildly different meanings for their own terms.

Definition drift is a wield wildland to cavort in.

===

The problematic core of the argument exists in the question of a duality. Blizzard has clearly formed a Horde vs. Alliance duality, but it has been insistent that this is not a Good vs. Evil duality. The question of alliance with undead creatures, for instance, implies a real-world analogy: should lawyers make deals with criminals in order to put more criminals behind bars? If they do so, are they evil?

Great pains have been made, in various literatures, to show that those often perceived evil are not mere mindless beasts, or cold computer-like masterminds. It's that they are complex beings whose intentions are quite often in the right place, but the problem is that they're not on your side. They're real people, too. One of the most enjoyable features of Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne was the single-player RPG (not RTS) that followed the story of a Beastmaster (Rexxar) who decided to serve Thrall. It was thus that you were able to get a look into the nature of Thrall from a very personal viewpoint, as well as the trolls and the tauren.

One of the most telling pieces of Orc campaign was the blood corruption of Thrall's closest friend, Grom Hellscream, and the best cinematic storytelling was the final stroke when they fought Mannoroth and succeeded in slaying the demon. This was redemption: the same redemption that Luke Skywalker brought his father aboard the Death Star. Who, after all, was the first to listen to Medivh's warning and sail across the Maelstrom? Thrall. Not the King of Lordaeron. Not Arthas. Not the Wizards of Dalamar. The Orc.

None of this makes what they do "right". But it means they aren't evil, at least, not in terms of the mindless roving beasts they're characterized as.

===

Lastly, and most importantly, elves and dwarves weren't exactly stand-up good guys in the lore they were derived from. Elves come primarily from Gaelic/British mythology, being of the faerie, and dwarves from Norse mythology, greedy grubbing forgers of powerful mystical weaponry. In Tolkien, you see a more powerful expression of the concept of Elf, best typified not in Lothlorien Forest, and certainly not in the movie, but in the Silmarillion. Feanor, the Dark Elf, and other notables I've long since forgotten the names of are all, in a particular way, a very morally ambiguous cast. You ought to be aware of that, Ted, with your experience with Shakespeare's Puck, who is an elf.

One of the clearest things that come out of reading The Silmarillion is that everything is supposed to be good, but it never quite works out so well. There is no more evocative message in its text. The only true evil, if you must is Melkor, but is he really evil, or just influenced by the void he spent too much time in? Melkor, too, was originally good, and theoretically would have stayed that way.

Remember that Tolkien didn't make up elves and dwarves, just as he didn't make up orcs and trolls. The mythological is rife with bad associations, which is the entire reason (okay, half the reason, the other half being domination) the Church denounces pagan beliefs. If Tolkien wasn't Christian in some way, shape, or form, we would have been given a very different set of texts as Britain's Tolkien-created mythos.

===

When in want of evil, one never has to look beyond themself.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:49:12 PM | link

Michael Steele says:

Oh... this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I'll try very hard not to rant for too long since I *hate* getting into discussions about game specifics; it tends to draw out lengthy comments from Gamers, rather than Game-makers, and I'm very very weary of reading stories about peoples characters, at least in the context of a professional/academic forum.

So onto my comments: I think Ted's opinions are 100% correct. I think his hypothesis is of course less about WoW, or 'Orcs' (in any context) than about the deeper psychological question: What does it say about a persons ethics/moral-fiber/personality if they willingly choose to play an evil character?

Let's set aside all questions about what constitutes an evil character... those are just semantics; let's just assume for the sake of not derailing the discussion too much that whatever the choice (Orcs, Nazi's, Terrorists, etc.) the player makes, *they* associate it with "Evil" in their hearts, and choose to play it.

[OK... in case that wasn't clear enough, here's a quick sidebar about that: Orcs are simply a good starting place since they traditionally represent unmitigated brutish Evil in lots of mythology/literature. If we were to use historical sterotypes for evil, whether it is Nazis/Apache's/Muslim Extremists/(insert someone's idea of a central-casting badguy here), then we all understand these won't be evil to everyone. Too much cultural perspective and baggage. So, as I said, let's take that part it off the table for a minute... the specifics aren't important. Assume for a moment the player *knows* they have chosen "Evil" instead of:
+ "Thought by most to be evil but really noble and misunderstood"
+ "I just want to experience this part of the content"
+ "Orcs have advantages in this game that let me level faster"...

No, assume they just want to roleplay "Evil".

End of sidebar]

I vividly recall Raph Koster's GDC talk about MMOs and griefers where he said; "In the long run, *no one* role-plays". In that room full of 250+ professional MMO operators, everyone was nodding in agreement. Yes, for a time the story 'character' will be roleplayed by the player, but in a very short order, the true character (the player) always comes out. There is a very old saying that goes something like "The true test of character is what someone does when they think no one is watching"

I've covertly studied the behaviors of a *lot* of players in virtual worlds (through the virtue of having operated several big games for publishers), and my empirical observations tell me that if a player chooses to 'roleplay' an evil character, the chances strong that they will be a problem customer who wrecks the experience for others. My not-quite-as-empirical conclusions are pretty simple too; If this is the role a player willingly chooses, chances are pretty good that they've got some personality issues.
I've had players tell me things like "Oh, I play an evil dark-elf assassin who is a relentless homocidical killer, but I'm just role playing... I'm really nice in real life"... guess what? They are wrong; they are jerks in real life too. It's very very simple: If they are an a**hole in a virtual world, they are likely one in RL too. What does this say about someone who willingly chooses Evil over Virtue? It's not that hard to figure out, IMHO.

Someday I hope that EA will openly publish some of their studies about the players of The SimsOnline. The truly frightening percentage of players who engaged in deviant, aberrant behaviors (when they thought no one was watching...); I shudder. Yet somehow, despite all of this, I'm still optimistic about people. :-) I guess my response has been to simply try and make virtual worlds which encourage/reward positive social behaviors.

So... these are just my opinions, but I will offer that they are backed up by seventeen years of making games professionally (not in my garage) and they are based on closely studying tens of thousands of players in about five large (~100k+) MMOs and several dozen smaller ones.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 8:56:26 PM | link

Michael Steele says:

BTW, The discussions about ethics in 'grey' circumstances are fascinating, and worthy of design discussions in their own right... but I don't think WoW (or any other virtual world with a substantial population) are specifically trying to let players explore those issues as a design goal. No, it's traditionally about a bunch of 23 year old guys saying "Dude, wouldn't it be cool if you could play Orcs too?!" and the artists thinking "Yeah, that would be awesome because I've always wanted to work with Clive Barker but I have to make game art instead". The deeper considerations of these design choices aren't discussed too much because they're too busy talking about where to grab a few brewskis after work. This is why we have games like GTA.

(LOL... with a nod to Mike Sellers infamous T-Shirt idea: "I make games... but I'm not bitter")


Posted Dec 24, 2005 9:07:20 PM | link

Michael Chui says:

And after reading M. Steele's post, I feel chagrined about my reaction, and felt I had to say so. Maybe I'll contribute something more pertinent later. Right now, Xmas Eve obligatory dinner, so my academic penchants must needs be set aside for sociological observance of actors under the guidance of multiple cross-cultural traditions in a melting pot format. And food.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 9:36:47 PM | link

Gary Rogers says:

I vividly recall Raph Koster's GDC talk about MMOs and griefers where he said; "In the long run, *no one* role-plays". In that room full of 250+ professional MMO operators, everyone was nodding in agreement. Yes, for a time the story 'character' will be roleplayed by the player, but in a very short order, the true character (the player) always comes out. There is a very old saying that goes something like "The true test of character is what someone does when they think no one is watching"

This really reminds me of something I saw today that I can't quite get out of my head, which is tangentially relevant to the post.

Here i was playing WoW, hear about an attack in Elwynn Forest (The Human starting area) I head over to see what's going on, as I HATE griefers. Find out it's a lvl 4 Tauren basically there joy riding. Not so bad, I equip my fishing pole and smack him about. There are a few other players there doing similar things. This goes on for a few minutes and then I realize he's just trying to get away. I stop attacking the others keep at it. Eventually they push him back to the grave yard and he spawns and the mow him down, even when he emotes 'no' and tries to hug us. They probably let him rez and die twenty times. I got to the point I was arguing with these people, almost begging them to just let him go.

What disturbed me most was when one said: "He's Horde, we kill him." He was a player, a human being. My own little view on in-game war crimes...

To more directly address the post: Yes, I agree. I tend to play Taurens and Night Elves, because they're the most tree-huugerish races in the game, the ones that I can identify with. I've tried out other races, but keep coming back to these two. I think the test shouldn't be 'What do we choose to be when we know the lore of the game?' You need to ask, 'What do we choose to be when we know very little?' In that light I think there's not just a significance to choice in race, but also choice in class. (Are all Tauren/NE Treehugging Druids really Greenies in RL?)

Posted Dec 24, 2005 9:59:52 PM | link

Timothy Burke says:

I don't disagree that these spaces are extensions of real-world meanings, of histories and hermeneutics and much else besides.

But then I guess I take the position on World of Warcraft's fiction that I would take on any fiction: that it is an interesting, salutary exercise to ask how something looks from the perspective of the "bad guys". In fact, this is a classic exercise of the imagination, the creative version of doing 100 jumping jacks.

There are fictions like Tolkien's which essentially forbid such investigations: orcs are orcs. When those fictions are in less confident or more derivative hands--say, like Eddings--they start to look pretty ugly, in fact, close to something like a mythogrified racism. Even in Tolkien's fiction, there might be a "Paradise Lost" narrative that could be offered: how does Eru's creation look to Morgoth/Melkor? What's his version of the story? Tolkien isn't just uninterested in that question, he actively forecloses it. You could say that's a virtue of his fiction or ultimately a shortcoming, the thing that makes it a kind of greasy kids-stuff compared even in the fantasy domain to Martin or Mieville or Pullman etc. I'm agnostic on that particular argument, but I can't imagine arguing that a fiction where evil is evil is evil is by definition eternally and permanently preferable, that there is never any virtue to playing with viewpoint or perspective.

So equally so in games. World of Warcraft takes the established visual and textual signifiers of evil in most generically Tolkienesque fantasies and tries to unsettle them vaguely (Blizzard's been doing this with this franchise from the beginning). I see no reason why one should not play along with that.

There's also the performativity question here. Why do most actors chew up far more scenery when they play evil characters? That's easy: evil is far more interesting within the conventional terms of drama. Antagonists are what make drama happen, by and large (either that or flawed protagonists). In a conventional MMOG, most of the things that make drama don't exist: there's no real stakes, no real consequences, no permanence in the world, just in the characters. From a pure performance standpoint, evil, or at least "evil-looking", is as much fun as "good".

There's a deeper thing here, too. I take as a given in the real world that one always has an ethnographic responsibility to investigate sympathetically why people do what they do, even people you judge negatively. I can't imagine just writing anybody off in the world as "evil" in a simple way; less so an imaginative universe that I play in.

(As an aside, my four-year old finds undead cannibalism kind of amusing. It's lead to some...complicated...conversations. The cartoonishness of the World of Warcraft universe helps a lot: if we were playing undead in a George Romero MMOG, it obviously wouldn't be at all amusing.)

(As an additional aside: as Horde, I find I hate Alliance far more than I hated Horde as an Alliance player. That's partly because, having played both sides, I'd say that fairly consistently Alliance players are much nastier on a PvP server to their opponents. More smug as well. This raises questions for your argument: if Alliance signifies "good", why doesn't it enforce or occasion performances which match that signification?)

Posted Dec 24, 2005 10:12:18 PM | link

Pietoro says:

WoW is a poor example, if you want to talk about why people choose to play 'evil' characters. Spending a few seconds reading the lore of the game world will show you that the motivations of all the races in Azeroth are not simplistic, black & white stereotypes based on their race.

There are regular debates over whether the Forsaken (undead) are even evil, or whether their undeath has changed their morality to the point where they can't relate to 'living' values anymore. You can't look at a Tauren and say they are 'evil' simply because they look like beasts. It seems to me that your view is the immature Disneyfied opinion that anything ugly = bad and pretty= good. And you're judging the Horde based on the fact that they don't look like you, so they must be monsters.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 10:15:02 PM | link

Pietoro says:

P.S. And saying that because orcs, trolls, minotaurs, etc. were traditionally considered 'bad' hundreds and hundreds of years ago automatically means any story with them in it HAS to cast them as evil, is also disappointingly narrow-minded. Blizzard has chosen to use these races in their lore to highlight the moral of 'don't judge a book by its cover' and also the fact that NO one race has a monopoly on righteousness and 'good'. And that cultural differences and past vendettas do not have to color the destiny of anyone, orc OR human.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 10:31:52 PM | link

nate combs says:

Michael Steele> Assume for a moment the player *knows* they have chosen "Evil"

I think this is the pivotal premise which to me Ted's arguments do not establish. Randy's point that some (e.g. casual gamers) might choose to turn this choice into a choice between evil and good certainly is true, but it those feel like individual choices using external frames of reference that do not generalize to all players.

Personally, I'm also a bit alarmed by discussion which breezily moves between choice of playing Horde in WoW versus online deviant behavior. The problem with this sort of careless fudge is some nut is going to read this and then decide one is an indicator of the other.

Posted Dec 24, 2005 10:45:21 PM | link

Sean "Severius" W. says:

First off about the Horde being evil... well, according to the lore it was the humans that broke the truce with the orcs and it was the Night Elves that unleashed the Burning Legion on the world. The Tauren are, according to the lore a very peaceful tribal people, and they befriended the Orcs because Thrall proved himself to be honourable. The undead were formerly humans, long dead, that were raised by the Burning Legion as slaves.

Now we come to a deeper question, one that has been discussed in philosophy forever... What constitutes good and evil? It is entirely subjective and depends on the point of view of the parties involved. For example, a human being that eats human flesh, or drinks human blood may be considered at worst evil, at least mentally unstable. Are sharks and lions and other apex predators evil because they will kill and sometimes eat the young of rival males? Are leaches and vampire bats evil because they drink blood to survive?

Posted Dec 24, 2005 11:12:13 PM | link

Pietoro says:

Some cannibalistic cultures eat the flesh of deceased family as a way to connect with their lost loved ones... they eat the flesh of their enemies to absorb the qualities of admirable foes.

Whereas we could argue over the 'rightness' of such practices, only a bigot could call such people 'evil' as their intent is not from some sociopathic tendency, but from a generations-old spiritual tradition.

And I won't deny this entire thesis about why people choose evil or good avatars in games, its a very interesting subject. WoW is just the wrong game to hold up as an example of such moral absolutes in its factions, because it does not paint its two factions so simplistically as 'good side' and 'bad side'. The factions in WoW are socially and poilitically at odds sometimes, they have a history of racial tensions and conflicts between each other, and neither side has always done the right and honorable thing.

Night Elves' lust for power sundered the world and let demons into the world, orcs sold their souls in the pursuit of the glory of conquest only to also lose their cultural heritage, which they are only now re-discovering, the humans abused the defeated Orcs, enslaving and punishing the children of their enemies for a hundred-year's past grudge, even after the orcs turned away from wanton bloodshed, the Dwarves defile sacred lands of the Tauren and call these people 'bull men' as if they were animals, not a intelligent people, in the pursuit of their own archaeological pursuits, etc.

Both factions have their ugly side, and their noble side. Neither side is presented as having the monopoly on 'goodness'. Only the most ignorant of players who barely bothers to even glance at the story of Warcraft could make such an assumption.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 12:31:24 AM | link

Pietoro says:

P.S. And Blizzard has said many times, they -purposely- tried to subvert the traditional roles their fantasy races played. Night Elves are Dark Elves (traditionally evil), only Blizzard's are good, while their traditional 'High Elves' are the twisted, corrupt side... same for the Orcs being more than just cannon-fodder 'monsters' for humans to fight.

So the reasoning that in western culture, the Horde races are evil because their mythological counterparts were originally such, holds no leeway with Blizzard's portrayals of these factions.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 12:48:54 AM | link

Dev Purkayastha says:

Ultimately, all the different factions have one of their first few missions be "there's some folks of another species; kill them". I got over this, as this is just a fantasy trope, and just a factor of gameplay, etc. But still: Horde vs Alliance is far from a evil/good split. Indeed, I feel more wary of people playing Alliance and consciously playing out violent acts and considering it fully good; whereas with the Horde, I feel more comfortably that I'm playing to some morally grey territory.

But beyond this example, there's still the important point. What's going on there when someone chooses an avatar that's capable of "evil" acts? More importantly, when they pursue evil acts? And I think Lydia says it best:

"What it lacks, unfortunately, is a way for players to make meaningful moral choices."

The ability to make a meaningful moral statement allows you to play a "evil" role self-consciously and meaningfully (like a tragic hero or flawed villain) rather than just enjoying some cruel activity.

I've seen this come up a bit in pen-and-paper RPGs, with which I am more familiar. It takes more effort to provide moral scenarios where the players are actually making a moral statement, rather than just letting them coast through morally problematic territory with the excuse that "it's only a game"/"it's only my character".

Posted Dec 25, 2005 1:36:14 AM | link

Mikey says:

First off ...it's a game, there is no moral choice made when choosing an avatar... it's a game, nothing more, if you believe otherwise go work for Jack Thompson :)

Anyone who believes the Horde are evil has a simplistic view of the WoW universe or simply doesn't know their WoW Lore.

I'd highly recommend the following pieces of educational reading in that regard:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/
http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/967
http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Totw.Detail&id=33

The Horde are not evil, It's a fact of Warcraft Lore.

To equate "ugly" with evil is a typically human failing / prejudice, sadly even in the real world.


Posted Dec 25, 2005 2:09:24 AM | link

Yrro says:

I think others have covered the "orcs aren't actually evil" part of this discussion well enough. What bothers me is the racist tone that implies that because the *race* of my character is considered evil, my character must therefore be evil as well.

I play an orc warlock, only one step away from the most evil combination present in the game, but the way I define the character in my head, and the way I play him, does not match the flavor text for every other warlock in existence. He is sacrificing his own body, perhaps his mortal soul, to wrestle with demons in order to harness their power for the good for the orc people. While possibly misguided, his intentions are not evil and his nature is noble and self-sacrificing. Why must every character from an "evil" or "good" race have the same motivations and the same backstory?

Few would call Thrall's actions evil, while few would argue that Arthas' actions were not eventually so. The grey introduced into the racial alignments stems from the fact that every character, pc and npc, is not a carbon copy of a one-paragraph racial description. One could play an orc to be savage and bloodthirsty or to be noble and saddened by the necessity of bloodshed. Just as a human could be motivated by love of his family and country or a desire for the wealth and power brought on by fighting monsters.

And there are opportunities (aside from the obvious pc to pc interaction) to exert this during the game. I loved acting as a double agent with the evil warlocks bent on the horde's destruction, but I point blank refused the quest from the undead who wanted me to poison a farmer's innocent dog. In fact, the first site of the apothecarium in Undercity filled me (in character) with such revulsion that I still desire to enslave Varimathras and raze the place.

And yet even the undead have room for more diverse motivations. Beyond their evil plots of poisoning there is a strong desire to be free, and an internal hatred of their current state and those who caused it. Just because the race at large has not yet been redeemed does not mean an individual cannot strive for redemption. Just as nothing prevents a night elf rogue from stealthing into Orgrimmar and slaughtering every child in the orphanage. The player determines the alignment of his character through his actions, not the creation screen.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 2:16:55 AM | link

DJ Endicott says:

The flaw with fantasy is how every world has a different outlook on creatures such as orcs, trolls, dwarves, etc. To claim that the entire Horde is evil isn't true, only because of the story behind these races. In fact, the most horrifying, prejudice race has been the humans in the series, for it was a human (Medivh) who unleashed the orcs upon Azaroth (who were at the time enthralled by the demons of the Burning Legion) and the humans who banished people for what they felt was different. The current orcs of WoW, led by their valiant leader, Thrall, aren't as savage as they once were. In fact, some orcs tend to be more humane than the humans themselves. The Forsaken do infact have an evil twist to them, but you must look beyond the obviouse taint. They did not choose to become undead, and becoming Forsaken drove them away from the even darker plans of the Lich King. They are bitter and hateful only due to their forced state of life. The Taurens are a very tribal race who love their land, and wish to protect it. The Trolls are the outcast of their own people, and because of Thrall's compasion, they were able to find a home amoung the Horde. If you wish to get even more technical though, there is a certain class that pertains to being evil, and that is Warlock. Warlock's, either Horde or Alliance, summon and use demons and dark fel energy to twist reality for their own desires.
The biggest issue of them all is the definition of evil. Though the humans view the orcs past-time lust for war as evil, the orcs view it as a natural calling. When the orcs arrived on the home land of the Night Elves, they cut down their trees in order to create shelters, and the Night Elves viewed these desecrations as an act of evil. The biggest mistake people tend to make is to apply their own morals and beleifs into a role-playing situation. Though the rules of the orcs or the night elves may not apply in the real-world, it does not mean that the real-world should apply to a fantasy one. When I choose to play something that most would consider evil, I do it for the role-playing experience. I love to act out characters who fell to the darkness, or who have overcome their hatred to seek the light. Playing an evil character does not imply that the said player has such tendecy's to do wrong, unless they have a weak concept of what is real and what is not.
But this is just my own opinion, and we're all entitled to our own. Thank you for this article.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 4:07:47 AM | link

Dan Hamman says:

The notion of evil itself is rediculous. It is all based on the current beliefs of the time. Every action has it's motivations and those motivations are justified by the person who is taking those actions. The notiion of evil itself it simply the misunderstanding of another's motivations.

When I choose a character, I don't choose it because I enjoy the mythology behind it, it is because it is statistically a good choice for that class.

I only play undead PC's, not because I enjoy the "evil" lore behind that race. It is because I enjoy the benefits of that race. The ability to break fear at will is invaluable in a pvp situation. When I click the cannibalize button, it is not becuase I "enjoy" watching my character eat the flesh of other things(although we eat other animals and that is not considered evil, why should an undead eating another dead creature be considered morally reprehensible), it is because I regenerate 7% of my life every 2 seconds and it saves me money I would have to spend on food(in fact it is more effective than food on my warrior). I enjoy the ability to swim underwater for long periods of time.

All in all you guys are thinking way too deep into this. The majority of people I play with pick their races because a)they look cool b)they have a nice racial trait c)it was the only race that allowed this class.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 4:08:05 AM | link

Keahi Ahue says:

It is all about perspective. From the Horde's perspective, the Alliance is "evil". Of course the other side is going to call their enemies "evil", to not do so is counter-productive to their cause. Are Germans "evil" because of World War II? No, they fought for what they believed in, which differ from other's thoughts. Are terrorist "evil" because of their actions that they take? No, they perform the actions they believe will bring them closer to their goal. "Good" and "evil" does not exist, only "winner" and "loser". And, as shown in past, history is written by the winners.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 5:19:41 AM | link

William Huber says:

Remember that Tolkien didn't make up elves and dwarves, just as he didn't make up orcs and trolls. The mythological is rife with bad associations, which is the entire reason (okay, half the reason, the other half being domination) the Church denounces pagan beliefs. If Tolkien wasn't Christian in some way, shape, or form, we would have been given a very different set of texts as Britain's Tolkien-created mythos.

I want to call attention to something that Tolkein introduces that does not pre-exist him in fantastic literature: he introduces "anthro"pological modes into his discussion of the races, reframing orcs, elves, dwarves and such as the objects of the kind of disciplinary knowledge of the modern academy - and then ascribing various moral-historical values to it. Modern heroic fantasy is largely dominated by this mode still, to explain the world of fantastic fiction in categories of contemporary understanding (anthropology, economics, sociology, even aesthetics and history) in a way that would have been deeply foreign to the narratives which long addressed things like orcs, elves and such.

This introduces a broad number of issues - it relates, I believe, to the emergence of race as a category in modern discourse, since differences marked as racial and cultural were subsumed under these disciplines in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 5:59:56 AM | link

Elijah says:

This whole discussion reminds me of another avatar scheme as described by Piers Anthony in his phenomenal novel about virtual worlds, Killobyte.

His fictional game Killobyte takes a distinctly moral standpoint on avatar selection- there are no alternate races or even terribly many character avatar models to choose from. Rather the game is broken up primarily by gender, with three male and three female avatar choices. The choices for males are True blue, Joe blow, and Dodoo, and likewise for females Royal lady, lone woman, and bad girl. The breakdown goes as one might except, with the most attractive archetypes being the top ones yet the attractive ones also being the most limited in their gameplay options. For example, there is an instance where a character playing "True blue" would not be able to lie- the game maintained a database of relevant facts and fact-checked each statement the character made relative to that to see if it was truthful or not.

So how does a system like that compare to the more loosely defined system in WoW? Should there be some enforcing factor to force characters to act more "evil" or "good" depending on the archetype they have chosen? Would we want to play in a world like that one?

Posted Dec 25, 2005 1:19:39 PM | link

Elliot centrella says:

Good and Evil are purely relative terms
the one on the right is larger>
<. or o> now the one that was small is now large. therefore is now both large and small.
Morality is measured In the same. I am more moral than a serial killer yet less moral than a person of faith. i am both good and evil."In every good there is evil, in every evil there is good" the idea of yin and yang.So no horde race is evil.they are merely following there programming as do lions. Would you begrudge a lion his antelope merely because your morals are higher? A undead eating a corpse is amoral compared to a paladin yet moral compared to a monster who attackls anything is sees. ie. every red mob.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 1:52:57 PM | link

some dude says:

1: Warcraft is a fictional place created by Chris Metzen. Orcs, being a fictional being have no real being and there fore can not be described in any one fashion effeciently.

2: Evil and Good are merely concepts told from a different point of view, to the victor goes the spoils, and with such the history books are written to their style. Much as the spanish-american war to the culture of Mexico was nothing more than needless bloodshed, to America it was the betterment of the country.

3: The orcs have children, Gorona, child of a human and an orc. They also have the children's days that alliance has.

4: The alliance with the undead is hardly because the orcs want to. If you were familiar with warcraft lore you would know that the undead we play as are beings that have fought an inner battle to free themselves from the bond of the Lich King, and the Scourge of Arthas. They follow a being of immense power that was the first to break control, Lady Sylvannas. Also, if you don't skip through quest text you will notice any undead not directly affiliated with Lady Sylvannas has no more concern about what's going on with the world. Only what affects themselves. This is known as self reliant. The undead fight to be so. Lady Sylvannas fights to have the undead eliminate all life. After all, if you believe in ghosts, they have something that keeps them clinging to this world, much like the Garrets in the Undercity.

5: Savagery and honor can be one in the same. Look at many native american cultures, "savage."
Now you call any native american's ways "savage" and see if you don't get a: beat down, or b: a tomohawk to the forehead.

END

Posted Dec 25, 2005 1:59:52 PM | link

Chris Yeh says:

The bottom line is that people have to be consistent. If one argues that virtual worlds can be more real than the real world, one can't also argue that playing an "evil" race is no reflection on one's own personality.

If you spend 40 hours per week raping, pillaging, and inflicting harm on others, you are a bad person, period.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 2:18:59 PM | link

Hellinar says:

Michelle Steele> I vividly recall Raph Koster's GDC talk about MMOs and griefers where he said; "In the long run, *no one* role-plays". In that room full of 250+ professional MMO operators, everyone was nodding in agreement. Yes, for a time the story 'character' will be roleplayed by the player, but in a very short order, the true character (the player) always comes out. There is a very old saying that goes something like "The true test of character is what someone does when they think no one is watching"<

That’s not my experience in Role-playing at all. I think your story just illustrates what I have always suspected, professional MMO operators have little understanding of role-playing, at least as I would practice it. In the early days of EQ, when there were still a few role-players around, people playing “evil” Night Elves would establish on OOC back channel with the player of the character they were slanging off IC. The Players could admire each others Roleplay skills while the characters were going at it hammer and tongs. It is the ability of both Players to separate character from Player, and take care of one while attacking the other, that makes for good “evil” roleplay. This is quite different from the jerk who uses “roleplaying evil” to excuse griefing.

I’m not a big fan of the “true character” theory. As I see it, humans are complex being with many different behaviours that come out in different contexts. The behaviours you see in private are not the “true character”, they are simply “behaviours people do in private”. Something would be lost in the range of what it is to be human if all our actions were public. Which is why most MMO operators at least claim to give some privacy to actions in their world. And why posting screenshots of conversations is often controversial. There are good reasons for keeping some behaviours private.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 2:53:22 PM | link

says:

You sir, have completely lost it. Blizzard said themselves none of the Horde races are evil, and its their game meaning it's their lore. Your son's fears give no meritable point. The way you speak, I think your crazy.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 3:43:13 PM | link

Wondersaurus says:

We have, at minimum, two options to discuss, and determine which more accurately represents the current state of affairs: 1) the Horde are evil and 2) the Horde are not evil.

Well, what the hell is evil, anyway? We need to have some definition of the word in order to come to any defensible conclusion. The most pertinent and useful definition offered by dictionary.com on this matter is "Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful" (this is the second definition. The first is "morally bad or wrong; wicked" which simply complicates the definition game more).

Alright, we have a definition. Do the actions of the Horde as a whole match up to this? We will discount that Orcs, Trolls and Undead tap into centuries old villainous tropes. Tauren are notable in that they can only be called evil by association. There are no racially specific quests, abilities or other content elements to denote them as evil. One exception that can be made is that numerous Tauren quests involve hampering and destroying archaelogical efforts made by the Dwarves, which can be construed as evil if you hold that the Alliance is good. Orcs, and Trolls to a lesser degree, are belligerent and fierce, which is evil for people on the wrong side of the axe. I don't know too much about either in specific, but it would appear that both are races who are of FIGHTING BLOOD, which makes sense given the source material of World of Warcraft. This can be construed as evil, as it is injurious to the people they get caught up in fights with, especially if the Orcs and Trolls serve as the aggressors. I do not know of any Blizzard created content where the Orcs are the aggressors. The Undead are the first race that can be called, on a whole, evil. They routinely perform vicious experiments to develop a superepidemic to bolster their numbers and allow them to defeat their hated Global Oppressors. Corpses of the world, Unite! I can only conclude that the Horde is morally ambiguous.

In terms of player actions, the field is far more diverse. The Horde does a great deal of terrible things to poor, little Alliance players. Likewise, the Alliance does horrible things to those Hordovians. Ganking, assassinations, eternal warfare (see: Tarren Mill), and conducting total war through your enemy's hometown.

My opinion? World of Warcraft was constructed to be systemically brutal, a world now alien to us but our European cousins from as recently as 400 years ago would have easily recognized. It is naive to discuss the game in terms of good and evil so flatly. If one could perform a moral calculus, the qualities of both factions would more or less average out, most likely with the Horde being more evil due to the extreme outlier of the Undead.

And maybe it's me, but I think that's going to be the natural result of any world where your primary form of mechanical interaction with it is to hurt things.

The Wondersaurus Fantabulorus
(For the record, my favorite race is the Undead. They look cool, breath through their ears, and RAWK when dancing. I never terribly liked the New Plague quests, but free stuff and I bring no actual change to the worldstate.)

Posted Dec 25, 2005 3:50:28 PM | link

Bobby Boy says:

Rope a dope. Haha. No really, think about these things in wider contexts and a little more in depth next time. Ciao

Posted Dec 25, 2005 4:52:44 PM | link

Watson says:

Ted,

You've taken a far too simplistic view of WoW having ignored the entire backstory of Azeroth. The Horde are no more evil than the Alliance and vice versa. Anyone who has bothered to read the written history of the game world will discover that the stories of each race (with the exceptions of the Trolls and Gnomes) deal in various shades of grey, each race dealing with their internal struggles for what IT consider right and wrong.

I consider the races of WoW an intersting analogy for our own struggles .....

Is the Muslim religion any more evil than the Christian religion? Look at the attrocities Christianity have foisted upon itself and the Muslim nations over history in the name of God and what it considers right: the Crusades, Evangelism, the KKK, the Spanish Inquisituion, McDonalds ... the list goes on. And in the same way extremist Muslims have interpreted the Koran to perform clearly evil acts upon Christians in the name of Allah. But does that make either religion evil. Only someone thinking in two dimensional black and white terms would say YES.

Look more deeply. Don't look upon the purely Black and White. Each person is capable of performing good and evil acts, no matter what side they choose. Judge the person ... not the race/faction.

Posted Dec 25, 2005 5:27:18 PM | link

Andy Havens says:

A really interesting topic and debate, although I kinda wish we could separate it out into the two topics that are now being hashed:

1. Is the choice of avatar (and, by extension, other play choices made in a cooperative online game) a reflection of the morals of the player?

2. Does the morality of a game system in any way reflect or impact the morality of the real world?

The specific debate about whether or not Orcs in WoW are more or less evil than humans is, I think, while interesting to players of WoW... not really the big issue. I played both sides in WoW and found really "good" and really "evil" players in both factions. Yes, Horde animations are scarier. As has been (intelligently) pointed out, ugly does not equal evil, and that's a good lesson.

Whether or not Orcs are evil, though, isn't really Ted's question. The question, is...

What does it mean when I choose to engage in fictional, evil activities?

Before we can answer that question, we have to probe deeper and ask the question: what the heck constitutes evil in a fictional world?

I will put aside issues of griefing -- that's not within the fictional world, but is "real world evil" that happens to take place in the game world. If you were playing WoW when I came up behind you and hit you on the head with a frying pan... well, that's some pretty extreme grief. But it's not behind the fourth wall.

But while role-playing... while staying in character... what does it mean to "be evil" or "be good?"

Does it mean that the character must do those things which we would proscribe in real life? I think not. If so, we'd only ever be able to play The Sims, and then only as our own best selves, and I'd rather peel apples and watch them turn brown than play that game. That's what I'd call the Highest Fictional Moral Extreme -- the idea that you expect your character to do nothing that you wouldn't yourself do, under any circumstance, in real life.

Then there's the Lowest Fictional Moral Abyss -- because it's a game, as long as I stay in character and don't grief, I can do anything. If you are playing an evil character, anything goes. Anything. Period.

As a role player and GM/DM of almost 30 years, I know that the balance between these two presents possibilities for lots of fun, learning, drama... and stress. Because we do think about those things that are outside our daily ken, and apply our own moral compass to weird, funky and fabulous situations.

I've played highly moral characters in "traditional" moral situations, highly immoral characters, and ones with "different" moralities. All good ways to explore philosophical questions about what morality is, the boundaries of ethics vs. cultural behaviors, etc. For example, in one long pen-and-paper series I was involved with, a particular race had very high regard for assassination as a method of realpolitik, but thought that the idea of war was absurd, insane and amoral. Killing a business or political rival -- within a set of strict rules -- was highly moral behavior. Those who excelled at it were considered wise, strong and to be trusted, as they could protect themselves, their families and friends. Those who couldn't... got theyselves kilt. Nuff said.

If you are truly roleplaying -- for the same joy that we authors and actors get from taking on the lives of others -- than considerations of self, including morality, aren't as important as considerations of story. If you are playing a game -- for whatever reason -- and it includes elements of roleplaying, and you are going to roleplay -- do it. Don't type words like "kewl," don't call me, "dude" and I don't want to know you're from Seattle. If your backstory makes you into a bad guy... be bad. If good, good. The play's the thing. If that's the case, and you choose to game, pick a character, get into the role, and make choices based on *his/her* morality. Not yours.

That's the whole point. Same as when you write or act. You're not you, Ted. That's what you can tell your kid and your audiences. That's what authors/actors do. Is Brad Pitt upset morally about the rolls he's played? Did T.S. Elliot wring-his-hands because the world he described was one of terror and darkness. Nope. It is, of a purpose, a different world. They're not your choices.

But... question 2...

Just like we had a moral high and low mark for how much we want our character to resemble our own ethical behaviors, we have to decide how *important* it is that morality in games be in any way linked to real world morality. If they aren't linked at all, then all you need to do is make in-game decisions that are based on concepts like fun, art, play, pacing, character development, etc. They are "craft" decisions. That's the low-rung. The idea that there can be no cross-over between game morality and real life morality.

The ultra-high-rung of the morality ladder is that we shouldn't be playing games at all.

Wha-tha-fuh?

Yep. Put down the mouse and the joystick and go do something productive. Whatever you do in-game, no matter how good or bad, cannot have as morally relevant an effect as donating that time to Make-a-Wish or visiting your grandpa in the retirement home.

It's not real, folks. It's entertainment. It's fiction. It's shared story. But you knew that...

As did I. And I'm being a pain and a kill-joy on purpose to make a point; that in a shared, fictional, leisure-based activity, morality will be highly selective, arbitrary and flexible.

In real life, killing somebody is almost always very, very bad. There are exceptions, of course, but they are highly specific.

In MMORPGs? We kill more than we chill. That's the whole point, eh? Animals, monsters, other characters, other races... kill, kill, kill, veins in our teeth, burnt black flesh. All the time, no waiting, walk right this way, here's your weapon. That's why we play, why we level, why we guild, why we loot. To be better killers. Period.

In the middle of a game based purely on killin'... you wanna argue about the moral relativity of a chunk of greyish-green pixels vs. a chunk of pinkish-white pixels? Ya boonch a wee girls... Git yer axes sharpened and git oot a' tha field a' blood!

Sorry... death talk makes me come over all Scottish.

Anyway... if the game, to me, is just a game, as some on this post have (rightly, for their leisure choice) said... morality don't enter into it. It's for fun. And since the game need not have any moral implications in their lives, there is, in fact, no moral difference between playing -- and playi